Forum:Archive/Various Christicism discussions

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Note from me first: I have been doing a lot of reading about other people's countries and creations. I love that there are so many clever and unique things on the site. I thought I'd offer a proposal to enhance cooperation among everyone a bit while providing a possible starting point for future endeavors. My proposal is about the structure (not the origins) of the Christic faith in this universe. First, I recognize that nothing stirs the pot more than religion, so I wade into this very carefully. I offer this idea as a means of allowing a lot of flexibility into what we currently have and looking forward to what might evolve. I also know that there are strong opinions about this, so please keep any discussion civil.

This post was originally cross-posted in the mapping user diary, here.

Proposal

Overview of of the Christic movement on OGF

Currently, there are two claimants to the "Catholic" Papacy: Peritan City (essentially a Vatican-like state surrounded by Darcodia), and St. Richards, Pretany. Peritan City does not have a history online, but I'd assume that the intent was something akin to our RW situation with the Vatican. The papacy in St. Richards is said to have been founded in 1373 or 1378, depending on the page, and helped the spread of the Christic movement via the Nortian Clearances. (Side note: the Nortian Clearances would have had to happen much earlier, as was acknowledged on the talk page; this might effect the date of the papacy being established there.) The catholic claimants don't address other Christic branches, such the Elekan branch of Egani (seems like RW Eastern Orthodox), Maurit Orthodoxy in Mauretia (RW Coptic/Oriental Orthodox), or other places like Mergany (RW Protestantism). Of course, another issue to be considered is the breadth of the Christic faith across Uletha and the diverse ways each country was founded—not just the different branches.

Summary of the proposed structure

In an effort to not pin things down too much, my proposal is summed up as this:

• We backdate the formation of Christic episcopal structure to somewhere in the late 1st or early 2nd century, which is similar to our real-world. I don't suggest we pin the date down exactly. It should be open-ended depending on how the origins of the Christic movement may evolve going forward.
• We establish a group of patriarchs, akin to the original RW idea of the Pentarchy, from which different branches could evolve and explain the spread of the religion's branches across the entire continent.
• Protestant branches of the Christic movement can be subsumed into two factions: under a patriarch of their own (like episcopal denominations such as Anglican and Lutheran), or anti-patriarchy (like Baptist and Evangelical churches that mostly use congregational polity).

Therefore, if we were to establish a Pentarchy (or, it can be easily modified in this universe to be a hexarchy or heptarchy), there are some easy places where there could be a claimant. They are as follows:

• St. Richards (current papal claimant, possibly akin to RW Avignon?)
• Peritan City (current papal claimant, possibly akin to RW Rome)
• Tangia, Mauretia (Oriental patriarchy akin to RW Alexandria)
• Tillia, Egani ("Elekan" patriarchy: Orthodox patriarchy akin to RW Constantinople)

There is room for more claimants of a different patriarchy, so long as the integrity of the Christic faith is left unchallenged. Maybe a Protestant patriarch in Mergany? Of course, I am trusting that full-out theological debates don't have to be incurred. Please, let's keep it civil and remember that this is a touchy issue for many people.

In all, very little actually changes. This is more to compose a system that fits the proposed histories and cultures.

Final thoughts

I see some following benefits to this type of a system. First, the structure of patriarchs provides a structure that is akin to the RW structure of the church and can bring otherwise schismatic groups together to some degree. Second, while there would be the expectation that the patriarchs would try to keep the faith sound, there would be competing interests. The theological differences between RW Coptic Christianity and Catholic Christianity would invariably exist between Tangia and Peritan City. This could help foster backdrops for future conflicts, cultural alignments, inter-governmental sympathies, etc. Perhaps the patriarch of Tillia might be more amenable to Tangia; maybe the competing factions of St. Richards and Peritan City might divide more "catholic" countries among alignments. I think it could be a good springboard for future dialogue while providing an in-universe explanation for the multiple-claimant and multiple-denomination system. Plus, with a fluid user-base, I don't think it's wise to pin things down too tightly in the event new users come and old users go.

All said, I welcome discussion on this system. —Alessa (talk) 20:58, 26 October 2016 (CEST)

Commentaria

As Kojo won't be too concerned with a christian-alike religion, I can't really contribute to the discussion; just want to express that I really like this coherent yet open concept, I think it would do a lot of good to how believable the system of religions in OGF is. Names can always be changes, I think it would be nice to have words similar to the RW terms, yet still noticeable different (like Ingerish for English etc.) Leowezy (talk) 23:26, 26 October 2016 (CEST)

I agree and have nothing to add (wow, great discussion starter George, clap clap, I know.) For Drabantia I chose evangelicism with a catholic minority in the south and south-east. The only thing that concerns me is the names. Is using 'catholic' and 'evangelic' okay? --Eklas (talk) 23:30, 26 October 2016 (CEST)

Religion, and names for religions, have been discussed a number of times before without anything much being resolved (e.g. here and here). It would be great if we could get agreement around something like Alessa's outline, and if we could agree on names which avoid replicating RW names (e.g. "Ortholic" has been suggested for RW "Catholic" ...). The question is ... how to we get to a common agreement?

My way of dealing with the lack of an agreed history of Christicism is to have an autonomous patriarchate in Tircambry, which I might extend to Wesmandy too (and too neighbouring countries if they're interested). It is doctrinally subject to the Papacy (but I haven't said which papacy!) but administratively largely independent, so I can develop its history without too much reference to the outside world! I have a rough equivalent of Anglicanism/Episcopaleanism too, called Puritism. I haven't defined its precise origins, so it could be part of the bigger picture. My "reformation", in which Puritism splits from Catholicism, occurs in the 1700s, a couple of centuries later than in the RW. -- Pawl (talk) 07:31, 27 October 2016 (CEST)

I like Alessa's proposal as well: some structure, yet flexible and easily added on to as needed. I have an unnamed "church" in Wiwaxia that's Christic I guess, although it has a fairly small percentage of the population who are believers. Haven't gotten so far as to define it in any way, or where it might belong amongst the various sects. Perhaps it could also be Puritist, since Wiwaxia officially broke off from Ingerland in 1722, it would make sense that it would break with the religion as well perhaps? I have to think about it. For Østermark, I'm thinking of something completely different - a kind of Christic/RW Norse God hybrid. I haven't yet thought it through fully. Perhaps another Christic branch of its own with its own patriarch/bishopric? -- --Demuth (talk) 22:18, 27 October 2016 (CEST)

Apostolicism

NOTES: Apostolicism can be seen as the OGF-equivalent of Anglicanism and the Anglican Communion. Countries with a strong history of Ingerish settlement and culture should be encouraged to add a branch of this denomination to this page.

Puritism

I already use Puritism as an Anglican-like church in Tircambry and Wesmandy (although I haven't written the Wesman history yet), but I have its origins in the late 16th/17th centuries, later than RW Anglicanism. Puritism has also spread to Bloregia.

I'd be happy to merge it with Apostolocism but the 15th century origin is a bit too early for my history. --Pawl (talk) 03:07, 15 September 2018 (CEST)

Oh bother, I totally missed that. Sorry. AS for the date, i'm not sure we have a definite date for the Reformation in the OGF world, so if it needs to come forward, I think that would be fine. Luther did his 95 Theses in 1517, is that a better date? --Turnsole80 (talk) 18:39, 15 September 2018 (CEST)

I could probably work with that date, but it would mean that Tircambry came late to the Apostolocist party, because I already have a fairly settled history which puts the first stirrings of Puritism in 1591 and its development into a distinct church over the course of the 17th century and early 18th centuries. The final Puritist rejection of papal (and patriarchal) authority doesn’t occur until 1764, although it ceased in practice decades before that. The different, extended, timeline is partly because I didn’t want to mimic the RW reformation too closely (in fact, originally Puritism was going to be even less Christian-like, with no messiah or saints, and druids instead of bishops).

Perhaps I should keep that separate history up to 1764, and at that point the two churches converge. Alternatively, does Apostolicism need to start around the same time as the RW Protestant reformation? Could it be a century or so later? Pawl (talk) 19:48, 17 September 2018 (CEST)

If you've put all that work into it, I see no reason to abandon all that and move your timescale back. The two can easily exist side-by-side for a while until their eventual convergence. Perhaps you may consider Puritism simply being Apostolicism under a different name with ever so slight changes to reflect its own background. Have your cake and eat it too. — ParAvion (talk) 23:06, 17 September 2018 (CEST)

We could have the two similar but separate, with Apostolicists being "High Church" and Puritists being "Low Church"? --Turnsole80 (talk) 04:18, 18 September 2018 (CEST)

Surely Apostolicism and Puritism can coexist, we just need to agree how they relate to each other. There's no need to model any RW denominations exactly, so both can represent Anglicanism in some ways. The relationship between the two can also reflect the one between Lutheranism and Anglicanism: these have diverged from Catholicism at two separate occasions, but later started intimate cooperation with each other (The Porvoo Communion) and to some extent with Catholicism (Joint Declaration on Justification). – In the currently written history, The Church of Bloregia represents a high-church wing of Puritism cooperating with Orthoholicism, which has lead to a break-up with the Tircambrian church as well as to emerging of a national low-church counter-movement (Paxkirgu). It would be natural to assume that The Church of Bloregia cooperates or has cooperated with Apostolicism at some point, if it is high-church. --LemonKing (talk) 08:44, 18 September 2018 (CEST)

---

OK ... I'm fine with having two traditions which later arrive at a mutual cooperation/communion. Since they're both episcopal in structure, perhaps an overall name for the mutual communion could be "Episcopan" or "Episcopist"? Other churches could join too.

I haven't given much thought as to whether Puritism is high church or low church. I didn't really want to get into doctrine or liturgy beyond the fact that the church has an episcopal hierarchy but rejects papal and patriarchal authority.

Although Tircambry's history is fairly settled, Wesmandy's isn't, and I might decide that it should become Apostolicist in the 16th century rather than Puritist later. -- Pawl (talk) 17:46, 18 September 2018 (CEST)

Sounds good to me :)--Turnsole80 (talk) 04:09, 19 September 2018 (CEST)

Aorangēa & East Anglesbury

I think Apostolocism & Puritism would be a thing in East Anglesbury. Maybe also in the Beaminsters further south. They (or one of them) would be state religion in East Anglesbury, while such a status in the Beaminsters would go against Aorangēas laicism.

Furthermore, Apostolocism & Puritism would be those who caused a theocracy in the 1920s and 30s in Aorangēa.

So, to decide on how they were involved in AO & EA's history, I would need some background information on the geographical distribution of the denominations and the bandwidth of doctrines within them. If necessary I could further elaborate about the theocracy time. --Toadwart (talk) 18:50, 18 September 2018 (CEST)

Ekelan and Ortholic churches

I'd love to have a bit more diversity in Myrcia, how would a Ortholic Ekelan Church be mapped? Are there saints which they are named after? Something like St Mark's OC Church? Myrcia (talk) 15:15, 1 January 2017 (CET)

I added more informations about what an Ekelan church looks like. Just one thing, all Ekelan church buildings should be part of one of the seven autocephalous and autonomous churches (Antharian, Romanish, Eganian, Vatofaran, Niscavan, Quartian, Pollonian) - for example, you could name one church in your country Antharian Ekelan Cathedral of St. Eleutherius. If you want to have Myrcian Ekelan churches, you can add the Ekelan Church of Myrcia to the list of autonomous churches. --Stjur (talk) 20:22, 1 January 2017 (CET)

The term Ortholic is used in OGF as an analogy to the RW Catholic Church, but what is described here sounds more like Eastern Orthodoxy. I have a feeling someone has come up with an equivalent term for RW Orthodoxy, but I can't remember what it is --Pawl (talk) 15:56, 1 January 2017 (CET)

Before I created the page I looked through the wiki pages containing the word Ortholic and I found only some pages related to Ardisphere, in which it looked closer to Eastern Orthodox (the logo of the Ardispheric Ortholic University contains even a Greek inscription), plus Ardisphere and many other countries seems to have the Catholic religion too (spelled exactly that way in OGF).

Also, the Ortholic Church doesn't necessarily have to be related to the Eastern Orthodox Church. It is just a religion which differs from the usual places of worship in OGF.

--Stjur (talk) 16:36, 1 January 2017 (CET)

You'll find other mentions if you use the advanced search and search the Talk pages (or the "Everything" search). Here, for example, Luciano mentions inventing the name "Ortholic" (ortólico) as a substitute for "Catholic". I've also found a User Diary where this was discussed - http://opengeofiction.net/user/Pawl/diary/392 (where Luciano also suggested "Cathodox" as an equivalent of RW Orthodox, but I don't know if anyone has used it).

Unfortunately, things have not been applied consistently across OGF, which is why you'll also see "Catholic" (and "Sacramentic", and maybe others). It would be nice to get more consistency. --Pawl (talk) 17:26, 1 January 2017 (CET)

So what is left for me to do? I could definitely change the name Ortholic to a new name I make up (cathodox sounds too cat-ish to me), but it would only create a greater mess in the religious situation on OGF. Luciano mentions, that the Ortholic religion is a minority religion, so, I think, there is no problem in building up on it. But I have no problem changing the name. --Stjur (talk) 17:45, 1 January 2017 (CET)

I would highly suggest reading through the comments here and here, since I kind of inadvertently stepped in this very puddle a couple months ago. As a point of issue, I understand Luciano's point about not wanting to rename things. (Frankly, he's not alone.) Therefore, I suggest caution here and see what other users are looking to do first. I think the term "Ortholic" is off limits right now, since it is Luciano's creation, and should be left until defined. We are assuming it is parallel to RW Catholic, but I have also seen "Catholic" and "Sacramentic" tossed around for those. If you're looking to define how the Christic movement in your country interacts with others, then that's different. Admittedly, since my Christic branch in Mauretia is akin to RW Coptic, I'm a slight step further afield. Personally, I'm in favor of at least some loose listing (like we do with languages simply being named "Ingerish" and "Franquese" without being defined any further). I'd be happy to continue work on whatever is there, too, but the community at present needs to come to some consensus. Alessa (talk) 19:22, 1 January 2017 (CET)

I had hoped that the "Ortholic" church, as used in the Ardisphere and also in Tárrases, was transparently Catholic. When I first joined OGF, I was using the term "Catholic" directly, but several users complained that it was against the spirit of the site to have direct references to real-world institutions, so I made a quick decision to just substitute "Ortholic." Two years later, there are thousands of churches, universities, etc., in my territories called "Ortholic" and so Alessa is correct that I am not enthusiastic about the prospect of having to change them. Ardisphere, being a stand-in for a Latin American type country, obviously needs a stand-in for the Catholic Church. The owner of Castellán (i.e. Spain) has also adopted the same term. The divergence between Ardisphere and RW Latin American countries is that post-independence, the Catholics were persecuted into minority status - which nearly happened in Mexico (e.g. the Cristero War was a reaction to this) for those familiar with Mexican history. As for the Greek on the Ardispheric Ortholic University, of course Greek is used in the Catholic Church in the real world - just not as much as Latin. Consider the seal of St John's University in New York City, which has a motto in Greek on it.--Happy mapping - Luciano (talk) 23:20, 1 January 2017 (CET)

Hello, I've just read the posts about religion from the past few months. I first invented Ekelan religion for practical and cultural reasons. I wanted a religion for Egani that is similar to the real world Orthodoxy, but without taking an already invented name that might change or bring debates. Ekelan is the name originally given to the western branch of OGF-orthodoxy, specific to Egani. The eastern branch becoming the Mauroi Church. Thus any country with Ekelan faith as major religion is considered orthodox equivalent. How could we explain the fact that it became the religion of Antharia? Eganians arrived in that region in the 16th century only. --Clik (talk) 16:50, 1 May 2017 (CET)

Well, language and culture of Antharia are also influenced by Suria, a country based on RW Russia, which is an orthodox country. Right now Suria is a reserved territory, but I could ask its future owner if he wants his country to have Ekelan backgrounds, until then, I'd leave this question open.

If this doesn't work, we could figure out why Egani chose exactly the territory of Niscavo to be its colony, right next to Antharia. Maybe there were strong relations between Antharia and Egani already before the 16th century? After all, our countries have quite similar cultures.--Stjur (talk • OGF) 17:00, 18 May 2017 (CEST)

I'm glad to see the connections between the Ekelan and Mauroi churches be put into the article, but it's a bit misrepresented right now. What is this "Verecletic Church" and why does it have to originate in the Slevic field? The Mauroi Church does not have its origins in Suria, and it will remain undefined so as long as there is no "holy land" in the OGF world. I don't know if Clik approves of his creation originating in Suria either, as he indicated to me that the Egani lands were also Christic at that time and it came from Sathria. Here's my thoughts: As Clik and I discussed via PM, the two saints mentioned in the article are an important shared part of both (Ekelan and Mauroi) branches. Since Christicism arrived in Mauretia before the arrival of the 5th-century saint, what I proposed to him was that the two saints were essentially ambassadors that tried to stop a schism and/or try to bring the two branches back into communion. Perhaps the Ekelan church, the Mauroi church, and an Antharian "Verecletic church" started to break apart in the fifth century; the Verecletic church and the Egani-based church worked back into communion and became the Ekelan church; the Mauroi church remained separate but also connected to her sister church in Egani. How does this sound as a possibility? — Alessa _(talk) 00:53, 22 August 2017 (CEST)

Hi, what I wrote in the article is just a sketch and I was going to ask you about was you think. I know I should have put it in a sandbox but I like to "always go right to the point". I thought that the Verecletic Church is the first wave of christianization in Uletha and a very close region to where ever OGF Israel is situated is Suria, the Slevic tribes from then (in the real world it was Turkey). I didn't want the Verecletic Church to be another branch, but just the first traces of Christianity, I could call it also just "Christic Church". The two saints could have come from any Christian region, I didn't really specified it to be Suria. I may have misunderstood their function but I can change this, there is no problem. Also there was no Antharian Verecletic Church because there was no Antharia back then, Antharia appeared as a Hellanesian colony and was inhabitated by Hellanesians who had their Ekelan belief already. I don't want to change anything about the Ekelan and Mauroi Churches, I just wanted to add Antharia into it. --Stjur (talk • OGF) 07:55, 22 August 2017 (CEST)

I see what you were trying to do. No problem. Here's what I did: I dug up the messages from Clik that contained what he and I agreed on with the origins of the Ekelan and Mauroi churches in our PMs, as we have been trying to develop closer ties between our countries. I made an edit to include this and remove the conflicting information. This edit gets us down to a more basic level as a baseline; from here we can develop it further if needed. I also put in there the info that came (by way of Clik) from Thilo about the New Ionean Empire and its role in spreading Christicism into Egani from the north. I did keep your sentences about the colonisation of Antharia by Hellanesians in there, as it fits Clik's model of Egani looking sea-ward. Feel free to change this if you don't like how it fits now. Part of our rationale is to keep things as simple as possible while presenting potential real-world issues (like the schism between Egani and Mauretia). As a side note to your other comment, I will say that I've seen nothing that codifies (only suggested) that the OGF holy land is near Suria, so I think we need to keep that vague for now. — Alessa _(talk) 16:36, 22 August 2017 (CEST)

Thanks very much for the edit, it looks great and it sounds way more professional than what I've written. I'm also sorry for this inconvenience, but I really needed to find out and write down the religious and cultural backgrounds to my country. --Stjur (talk • OGF) 16:47, 22 August 2017 (CEST)

No problem. I understand the need for a clear background! It makes mapping so much easier. So you know, I have named the saint that landed in Salda but haven't heard any thoughts from Clik about the one in Krisoaral. Once he decides what she is named, I plan to have a cathedral in honor of both in Salda and elsewhere. I believe he was planning something to have both saints listed in his cities, too. I'll keep you posted on that. I probably will need to develop the Mauroi church article a bit in the coming days too. — Alessa _(talk) 16:57, 22 August 2017 (CEST)

I can change the name to Ortholic in Pretany. Pretany has the Haywater Monastery which is the current papacy of western Uletha (At least) This discussion was never fully hashed out. I feel we need a deeper history of Christicism in general and how all of this ties in.Bhj867 (talk) 19:57, 22 August 2017 (CEST)

Is "Reformatism" analogous to RW Protestantism (a general term for numerous non-Catholic churches) or is it a specific branch of Christicism (like Lutheranism, Anglicanism ... )? Tircambry has a couple of reformed churches - Puritist (sort-of like RW Anglican) and Metholic (RW Methodist) - and I'm wondering whether they should be added to this list. The Tircambran "reformation" started in the 17th century - later than the real-world Reformation, whereas Reformatism is said to have started quite a bit earlier, in the late 14th century. It would be nice if they were more connected. Could Reformatism have started later, perhaps in the mid-to-late 16th century? --Pawl (talk) 22:22, 21 August 2017 (CEST)