Talk:OGF:Global collaboration

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Rethinking table?

I like this idea, but for some reason I'm finding the table rather hard to process. What about something like the one below? It may be harder to fill in, and I know it's not always easy to classify countries into simple categories, but I feel like it would allow us to more easily see which countries were in general ideological alignment at which points in time, and form historical blocs based on those alignments. (Just filling in this example table haphazardly, btw. The classifications of individual countries aren't necessarily meant to be accurate.) Any thoughts? --Isleño (talk) 22:21, 22 January 2016 (CET)

Politics. Hard not to avoid some heated discussion ;-) But, Woolonia moving from "more to democratic/less socialist" doesn't seem accurate to me. In my book, socialism and democracy aren't mutually exclusive in any way. I realize Americans equate socialism solely with communism, but what about Europe's many great social democracies? And in truth, by most non-U.S. definitions, the U.S. is definitely a social democracy - social welfare is undeniably key to the well-being of the populace, just look at the social security system (and the name might just give you a clue...). I think this needs a much better description. Or just change socialism to communism if you want to take an easy way out. That's my two-cents. --Demuth (talk) 13:22, 23 January 2016 (CET)
"Left leaning democraty" shall be not have real communistic structures, but strong "social-democratic" (in european sense). If a land has a real communist structure (as the formerly UdSSR and the satellites), I think it is better, to sort this land in "left wing dictatorship" (???) --Histor (talk) 14:30, 23 January 2016 (CET)
Well, not to get heated, but...;) There is a definite issue of left/right & democracy/dictatorship - there are likely, at some stage to be democratically elected 'communist' or even possibly 'fascist' countries in OGF, if there aren't already (although is that then a dictatorship cf. 'dictatorship of the proletariat'?). I would say it is for the user to decide whether a country, whatever it is called, goes in one of those columns or another (i.e. to let us compare apples with apples - similar government systems with other similar government systems). This table format can't deal with situations where there are 'democratically elected dictatorships' graphically - or at least I can't see a way for it to do that. But it does simplify the situation very well if we want to use it to develop shared history. To build on it I was thinking was a 'notes by country' table below this one which links to the present table. Won't be able to do that today though. There may also be issues with colonies that split - eg how would you put Vietnam in 1950-1970 (do you think the Ionadàlba example works or is it too clumsy?) I've added some 's's to the decade column. --Udilugbuldigu (talk) 14:45, 23 January 2016 (CET)
I was just being nitpicky, really. I think the table placement was totally accurate, it was the footnote I was taking issue with. And I agree with Histor, communism should probably go under dictatorship, so my suggestion for Woolonia to be communist wasn't a good one. I think really the footnote description for Woolonia should be "more centrist/less left" instead of "more democratic/less socialist." Being less socialist doesn't mean being more democratic was my point, it could mean the opposite in fact. --Demuth (talk) 15:48, 23 January 2016 (CET)
Demuth, I understand what you mean, it's just that Woolonia did lean more towards a dictatorship style government, but it was democratically elected. It still has some socialist tendencies now (in a positive way, like the U.S. or Canada, like you said :) ) But it during that period was very much more like a dictatorship due to outside forces- except- it wasn't actually a dictatorship; while the socialist party had an almost dictatorshiplike control over politics, it was democratically elected. I put it as democracy because technically, that's what it was- the issues came in with the alliances made with socialist and communist dictatorships, as the dictatorships dragged Woolonia into a lot of situations they didn't want to be in and that hurt the nation. I'll change the footnote slightly, but I'm not sure there's a better way to categorize it. --Ernestpcosby (talk) 20:18, 23 January 2016 (CET)

Timeline table

Year Character of government
Less
democratic
More
democratic
Anarchy/Other
(see notes
below table)
Left-leaning
dictatorship
Centrist
dictatorship
Right-leaning
dictatorship
Left-leaning
democracy
Centrist
democracy
Right-leaning
democracy
1900s Lost country.png Ionadàlba[1] Template:Mahhal Lost country.png Arataran
Flag-of-Delta.PNG Neo Delta
FreedemianFlag1.png Freedemia
Karolia flag.png Karolia
Colony of Elhadia flag.png Commonwealth of Elhadia
Wiwaxia Flag.jpg Wiwaxia
FLAGZYL.png Zylanda
Luciano Flag FA.png Ardisphere
Lost country.png Forrintië
—Drulle
Ingerland-flag.png Ingerland
—Ingerish Suvuma
—Prot. of Khaiwoon
—Onnutu Colony

Latflag.png Latina
Lost country.png Woolonia
Ostermark Flag.jpg Østermark
Lost country.png Demacia
Final design.png Commonia[2]
Lost country.png Ūdzđąnąrąt[3]
1910s Lost country.png Arataran Lost country.png Ionadàlba Template:Mahhal Flag-of-Delta.PNG Neo Delta
Lost country.png Woolonia[4]
FreedemianFlag1.png Freedemia
Karolia flag.png Karolia
Colony of Elhadia flag.png Commonwealth of Elhadia
Wiwaxia Flag.jpg Wiwaxia
FLAGZYL.png Zylanda
Luciano Flag FA.png Ardisphere
Lost country.png Forrintië
—Drulle
Ingerland-flag.png Ingerland
—Ingerish Suvuma
—Prot. of Khaiwoon
—Onnutu Colony

Latflag.png Latina
Ostermark Flag.jpg Østermark
Lost country.png Demacia
Final design.png Commonia
Lost country.png Ūdzđąnąrąt
1920s Lost country.png Arataran
Lost country.png Woolonia
Lost country.png Ionadàlba Template:Mahhal Latflag.png Latina
Flag-of-Delta.PNG Neo Delta
Lost country.png Forrintië
—Drulle
FreedemianFlag1.png Freedemia
Ingerland-flag.png Ingerland
—Ingerish Suvuma
—Prot. of Khaiwoon
—Onnutu Colony

Karolia flag.png Karolia
Colony of Elhadia flag.png Commonwealth of Elhadia
Wiwaxia Flag.jpg Wiwaxia
FLAGZYL.png Zylanda

Luciano Flag FA.png Ardisphere
Ostermark Flag.jpg Østermark
Lost country.png Demacia
Final design.png Commonia
Lost country.png Ūdzđąnąrąt
1930s Lost country.png Arataran
Lost country.png Ionadàlba
>(Soviet of Stachen 1.png Soviet of Stachen)
Lost country.png Woolonia
Template:Mahhal
Lost country.png Ionadàlba
>(Ionadalba Mhor.png Ionadalba Mhor)
Luciano Flag FA.png Ardisphere
Lost country.png Ionadàlba
>(Republic of Álba.png Republic of Álba)
Flag-of-Delta.PNG Neo Delta
Wiwaxia Flag.jpg Wiwaxia
Lost country.png Forrintië
—Drulle
FreedemianFlag1.png Freedemia
Ingerland-flag.png Ingerland
—Ingerish Suvuma
—Prot. of Khaiwoon
—Prot. of Onnutu

Karolia flag.png Karolia
Latflag.png Latina
Colony of Elhadia flag.png Commonwealth of Elhadia
FLAGZYL.png Zylanda
Ostermark Flag.jpg Østermark
Lost country.png Demacia
Final design.png Commonia
Lost country.png Ionadàlba
>(Ionadàlban Anarchists.png Ionadàlban Anarchists)
Lost country.png Ūdzđąnąrąt
Lost country.png Woolonia
>(WTR.jpg Woolonian Traditionalist Rebels)[5]
1940s Lost country.png Arataran
Lost country.png Woolonia
Lost country.png Ionadàlba[6]
Template:Mahhal
Luciano Flag FA.png Ardisphere
Flag-of-Delta.PNG Neo Delta
Wiwaxia Flag.jpg Wiwaxia
Lost country.png Forrintië
—Drulle
FreedemianFlag1.png Freedemia
Ingerland-flag.png Ingerland
—Ingerish Suvuma
—Prot. of Onnutu

Karolia flag.png Karolia
Colony of Elhadia flag.png Commonwealth of Elhadia
Khaiwoon flag.png Khaiwoon[7]
FLAGZYL.png Zylanda
Latflag.png Latina
Ostermark Flag.jpg Østermark
Lost country.png Demacia
Final design.png Commonia
Lost country.png Ūdzđąnąrąt
Lost country.png Woolonia
>(WTR.jpg Woolonian Traditionalist Rebels)
1950s Lost country.png Arataran
Lost country.png Woolonia
Lost country.png Ionadàlba
Template:Mahhal
Luciano Flag FA.png Ardisphere
Flag-of-Delta.PNG Neo Delta
Lost country.png Forrintië
—Drulle
FreedemianFlag1.png Freedemia
Ingerland-flag.png Ingerland
—Ingerish Suvuma
—Prot. of Onnutu

Karolia flag.png Karolia
—Elhadia
Latflag.png Latina
Wiwaxia Flag.jpg Wiwaxia
FLAGZYL.png Zylanda
Khaiwoon flag.png Khaiwoon
Ostermark Flag.jpg Østermark
Lost country.png Demacia
Final design.png Commonia
Lost country.png Ūdzđąnąrąt
Lost country.png Woolonia
>(WTR.jpg Woolonian Traditionalist Rebels)
1960s Lost country.png Arataran
Lost country.png Woolonia
Template:Mahhal Luciano Flag FA.png Ardisphere
Flag-of-Delta.PNG Neo Delta
Wiwaxia Flag.jpg Wiwaxia
Lost country.png Elhadia[8]
Lost country.png Forrintië
—Drulle

FreedemianFlag1.png Freedemia
Ingerland-flag.png Ingerland
—Ingerish Suvuma
—Onnutu (home rule)

Karolia flag.png Karolia
Latflag.png Latina
Ostermark Flag.jpg Østermark
FLAGZYL.png Zylanda
Lost country.png Ionadàlba
Khaiwoon flag.png Khaiwoon
Lost country.png Demacia
Final design.png Commonia
Lost country.png Ūdzđąnąrąt
Lost country.png Woolonia
>(WTR.jpg Woolonian Traditionalist Rebels)
1970s Lost country.png Arataran Template:Mahhal
Luciano Flag DFS.png Drull
Luciano Flag FA.png Ardisphere
Flag-of-Delta.PNG Neo Delta
Wiwaxia Flag.jpg Wiwaxia
Lost country.png Woolonia[9]
Lost country.png Elhadia
Lost country.png Forrintië
FreedemianFlag1.png Freedemia
Ingerland-flag.png Ingerland
—Ingerish Suvuma
—Onnutu (home rule)

Lost country.png Ionadàlba
Karolia flag.png Karolia
Khaiwoon flag.png Khaiwoon
Latflag.png Latina
Ostermark Flag.jpg Østermark
FLAGZYL.png Zylanda
Lost country.png Demacia
Final design.png Commonia
Lost country.png Ūdzđąnąrąt
Lost country.png Woolonia
>(WTR.jpg Woolonian Traditionalist Rebels)
1980s Lost country.png Arataran Lost country.png Elhadia
SuvumaFlag.png Suvuma[10]
Template:Mahhal
Luciano Flag DFS.png Drull
Flag-of-Delta.PNG Neo Delta
OnnutuFlag.png Onnutu[11]
Latflag.png Latina
Wiwaxia Flag.jpg Wiwaxia
Luciano Flag FA.png Ardisphere
Lost country.png Forrintië
FreedemianFlag1.png Freedemia
Ingerland-flag.png Ingerland
Lost country.png Ionadàlba
Karolia flag.png Karolia
Khaiwoon flag.png Khaiwoon
Lost country.png Woolonia[12]
Ostermark Flag.jpg Østermark
FLAGZYL.png Zylanda
Lost country.png Demacia
Final design.png Commonia
Lost country.png Ūdzđąnąrąt
Lost country.png Woolonia
>(WTR.jpg Woolonian Traditionalist Rebels)
Notes:
  1. Lairdship o'Ionadàlba
  2. Explanation of Commonia here
  3. Explanation of Ūdzđąnąrąt here
  4. Woolonian socialism grows 1912 in response to rapid modernization, common man movement
  5. Traditionalist movement unofficially breaks off of Woolonia
  6. Ionadàlban Civil War, 1934-42
  7. Khaiwoon independence, 1934
  8. Elhadia independence, 1956
  9. Woolonian socialist dictatorship thrown from power, democratic election of 1978
  10. Suvuma independence, 1973
  11. Onnutu independence, 1978
  12. Woolonia retains socialist tendencies but moves toward a social democracy model from pure socialism in 1984, new constitution



Discussion

I personally really like this table, @isleno!! :) However, I feel like both cover information not fully covered by the other; what about putting this table on the bottom of the other page? The first table could be to help figure out alliances and powerblocks, while the second (the above one) would be more for figuring the individual history out beyond the blocks and making it all work out. What dou you think? --Ernestpcosby (talk) 22:47, 22 January 2016 (CET)
We may also need some notes in the talk section here of what we specifically mean by "left leaning/right leaning" --Ernestpcosby (talk) 22:50, 22 January 2016 (CET)

@ Isleño - great, love it, better than the other one I think. It pulls everything together very clearly. I can see it is complicated and will get more complicated as countries are added. But I agree it looks there is even a way to get 'powerblocks' out of it - that is if we assume that countries with similar governments would naturally align together, exceptions permitted. The only thing is that we may end up with a very big notes section. I'll think about that, there will be a solution. If nobody objects I'd replace the old table with this one. --Udilugbuldigu (talk) 22:59, 22 January 2016 (CET)

I have no problem with replacing it but can we at least leave it there for a while to transfer the information over? The information for Freedemia and Woolonia is only in that table. I haven't been able to transfer anything out yet because that history isn't set in stone yet. Or should I put the stuff into the table here now before it gets moved? --Ernestpcosby (talk) 23:05, 22 January 2016 (CET)
@Ernest - I'm happy to sort out all the current countries and info for a new table, but it won't be today. I don't know if it would be better to get rid of the old table or not, but I think 2 similar tables wouldn't be necessary and could add complication. Still, one way I was thinking of resolving the number of notes issue would be to tabulate notes, somehow, but not today. The old table could move to talk page for some days for transition. --Udilugbuldigu (talk) 23:43, 22 January 2016 (CET)
Thanks for the feedback, Ernest & Udi. Whatever you guys want to do is okay by me. I've adjusted the notes so that they display in three columns, so hopefully take up less vertical space. I'm still a little worried that people will have problems figuring out how to add their countries in... It won't be easy, but maybe we'll see how it goes? --Isleño (talk) 00:08, 23 January 2016 (CET)
What, can I ask, should we show for monarchies with little or no democratic factions? Should these come under right- or centrist dictatorships?--Sarepava (talk) 20:32, 23 January 2016 (CET)
@Sarepava - I think an absolute monarchy would count as a dictatorship, the alignment would mostly be centrist but could be right (I suppose dependent on the 'extent of oppression').

@Ernestpcosby - I think it looks as if Woolonia should at some points be a left-leaning dictatorship, on the basis that if it is a 'one-party state' theremust be an element of dictatorship. The party may have come to power through democratic elections, for example, but a 'one-party state' has, by definition, dis-empowered other political factions or parties (and there may be a case that even a 2 party state could do this). The power may be vested in more than one person i.e a poliburo, but it is still a dictatorship.--Udilugbuldigu (talk) 22:00, 24 January 2016 (CET)

An alternative way we could organise the left/right categorisation below:


Table v2

Year Character of government

More
democratic

More
autocratic
Anarchy/Other
(see notes
below table)
Left-leaning
democracy
Centrist
democracy
Right-leaning
democracy
Left-leaning
dictatorship
Centrist
dictatorship
Right-leaning
dictatorship
1900s Lost country.png Arataran
Flag-of-Delta.PNG Neo Delta
FreedemianFlag1.png Freedemia
Karolia flag.png Karolia
Colony of Elhadia flag.png Commonwealth of Elhadia
Wiwaxia Flag.jpg Wiwaxia
FLAGZYL.png Zylanda
Luciano Flag FA.png Ardisphere
Lost country.png Forrintië
—Drulle
Ingerland-flag.png Ingerland
—Ingerish Suvuma
—Prot. of Khaiwoon
—Onnutu Colony

Latflag.png Latina
Lost country.png Woolonia
Ostermark Flag.jpg Østermark
Lost country.png Demacia
Lost country.png Ionadàlba[1] Template:Mahhal Final design.png Commonia[2]
Lost country.png Ūdzđąnąrąt[3]

I will try and do a diary entry on this soon. Any thoughts on table v1 vs table v2? --Udilugbuldigu (talk) 21:18, 5 February 2016 (CET)

I do like v2 better. Easier to understand. Perhaps they might want to put a small thing below the table just explaining what we mean by right leaning and left leaning and dictatorship vs. democracy just so there's no questions, and I do like the idea of a notes table, but I like it! --Ernestpcosby (talk) 21:56, 5 February 2016 (CET)
Moving this version of the table to the main page--Udilugbuldigu (talk) 01:19, 15 February 2016 (CET)

  1. Lairdship o'Ionadàlba
  2. Explanation of Commonia here
  3. Explanation of Ūdzđąnąrąt here