Talk:OGF:Sandbox/Franqueterre

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Geography

If that project indeed does see the light, I'd be happy to have Vilvetia be a former colony, lost in some war to Ingerland during the XVI or XVII century --Eretra (talk) 23:52, 17 December 2018 (CET)

I guess I'll have to settle for Franqueterre being the official name then. Is it reasonable for Tigeria to be historically linked to Broceliande through the Cinq Îles and the Îles du Midi? I don't know how far apart those island chains are, but if ties across the islands are strong enough, we could make a case for Franqueterre to link across the water that way. Complaglia appears to be Italian, and I'm not sure what's going on in Ünglend; so it may be difficult to make a cohesive Franquese region on the mainland from Tigeria to Broceliande. Chazeltine (talk) 06:44, 18 December 2018 (CET)
Yes, I'd agree, but more often than not, it is possible that a large, predominantly franquese country has many regional languages within, similar to the Austro-Hungarian Empire. In fact, that could lead to the eventual death of the Franqueterre. On the note of colonies, I think it is more realistic for a hypothetical Franqueterre to be an imperial power than UL141, so colonies would definitely be somewhere there. --Thanks, Zekiel (talk) 17:31, 18 December 2018 (CET)

La patrie franquaise

What do you think of these borders for the homeland of Franqueterre? The capital is at Valoris. I haven't included TA113c and El Ajenjo, but this can change depending on discussion. Chazeltine (talk) 16:48, 14 March 2019 (CET) Historic Franqueterre.png

It makes zero sense. Why is Franqueterre so far from the rest of "OGF Europe". It's bad enough that Castellan is on the wrong side of the Arab homeland from Kalm / Ingerland etc. Where were the historical "OGF Romans" such that Franqueterre ended up down here? I have always assumed that all these Franquese-speaking countries in this part of the world were the result of some colonial enterprise (perhaps earlier in history - possible because there is no need to cross open ocean between Uletha and these continents). So this is better conceived as a map of "Nouvelle Franqueterre", maybe?--Luciano (talk) 17:15, 14 March 2019 (CET)
Yes, I'd agree with Luciano on this one, because UL141 is the designated French homeland, and is geographically closer to the homelands of other Romantic/Germanic languages in OGF. That being said, it is still conceivable to have a colony of such scale, similar to how the French parts of North America were once Nouvelle-France. Is it also possible, though, to have that colony make its own colonies, similar to Ancient Carthage (colony of Phoenicia) or the USA? --Thanks, Zekiel (talk) 23:33, 14 March 2019 (CET)
Sure, Trombonist. As I replied you right now via PM, at least me, am not against the idea of "new coloniser". My personal case: brasonians settled Cariocas islands - but Brasonia was previously settled by florescentians, and also Brasonia is not a superpower. -- BMSOUZA (talk) 23:44, 14 March 2019 (CET)
Okay, that's great news, thank you! As for the map, I think it is good, so long as everyone in it agrees to be part of it historically. --Thanks, Zekiel (talk) 11:03, 15 March 2019 (CET)
Sorry, just one other thing interestingly came to me. Since "Nouvelle-Franqueterre" is not the Franquese homeland, but rather a colony, do you think that we could possibly use a dialect of Franquese, similar to creole in the real world? I mean personally, it makes complete sense to me that the language would change that way (of course, depending on the type of colonization that occurred), but there are definitely some cases in the real world as well where Standard French was adopted completely and not blended in with the local languages. --Thanks, Zekiel (talk) 11:18, 15 March 2019 (CET)
Thats OK to me. Reallistic! -- BMSOUZA (talk) 12:52, 15 March 2019 (CET)

I should clarify that by "franquais" I meant Franqueterre as in l'Angleterre/anglais and not as a reference to the planned original Franquese homeland (maybe sud-franquais or austral-maritime could help distinguish the peoples of the southern land). It might be interesting to see if we develop a cultural dynamic where our Franqueterre becomes the center of the Franquese empire for a brief period of time, much like Brazil was once the center of the Portuguese empire in the early 1800s, which means that since then, Franqueterre and UL141 would influence each other and develop strong ties to the other. Chazeltine (talk) 17:02, 15 March 2019 (CET)

Now that's a very interesting idea, and one I could support - a "Brazil-from-Portugal" style displacement of the focus of the empire. But there's also just the organic displacement of Britain by the US in the Anglophone world, which could be paralleled in the French-speaking sphere. Anyway, it might explain the metropolitan character (in the French sense) of countries like Brocéliande. @Chazeltine - I have one concern: are you pursuing this with tparigo's input? I'm not sure that mapper should be left out this sort of discussion.--Luciano (talk) 17:48, 15 March 2019 (CET)
@Luciano we had a little discussion with tparigo about it in Talk:Broceliande, and we sorta came to the same conclusion that it would not be the homeland, but a/the dominant Franquese land, with a monarchical union of sorts (I guess we kinda forgot that somewhere along the way). I guess I came up with that idea mostly because when seeing that UL141 was the homeland for the Franquese language, I just thought that it couldn't be the kind of empire that could colonise great swathes of land and spread its language so far. Thus with a Nouvelle-Franqueterre of sorts, it makes the spread of Franquese everywhere more sensible for me. --Thanks, Zekiel (talk) 19:48, 15 March 2019 (CET)

--Thanks, Zekiel (talk) 11:57, 25 May 2019 (CEST)--Thanks, Zekiel (talk) 11:57, 25 May 2019 (CEST)

Name

I am fine with using Nouvelle-Franqueterre for now. If UL141 isn't named Franqueterre in the future, we can also pick a new name for Nouvelle-Franqueterre. If Terre-Neuve didn't mean Newfoundland (Canada), I would have suggested Terre-Neuve as another name. Chazeltine (talk) 08:44, 15 May 2019 (CEST)

So I think that since it becomes its own country, it could have a name that doesn't share any semblance to "Franqueterre" if that will be its official name. It could be similar to Québec to France name-wise, for example. I don't have any suggestions at the moment. --Thanks, Zekiel (talk) 13:41, 15 May 2019 (CEST)

In the real world, it looks like the French named their colonies by location (Afrique-Occidentale française), for their economic value (Côte d'Ivoire), for their royal family (Louisiane, from King Louis XIV), or for other significant places in the world (Acadie, from Arcadia, Greece). According to Broceliande, Franquese settlers arrived in Broceliande in the 1200s (from Pretany). Because of the date, I think this land was most likely one of the first Franquese settlements outside of Pretany. For names, it could be named by:

  • Location (Tarephie-Australe or Tarephie-Centrale (historically, Tarephia and Antarephia were treated as one continent))
  • Economic Value (Terre-Bonne)
  • Royal Family (Valorie (from Valoris; the Franquese settlers were led by Hubert de Valor)-
  • Significant Places (Nouvelle-Emporie, from Port Emporia, the historic city of the Franquese peoples)

Chazeltine (talk) 16:50, 15 May 2019 (CEST)

Slightly late, yet my favourite is Terre-Bonne, with Tarephia-Australe in close second.
Rhiney boi (talk) 05:37, 25 May 2019 (CEST)
So then FQT's name is somewhat reliant on what UL141 is named (Franqueterre to Nouvelle Franqueterre) if we name it that way? I would prefer that idea, though I would also go for a directional kind of name (i.e. Sud-X where X is UL141's name). --Thanks, Zekiel (talk) 11:57, 25 May 2019 (CEST)
(It would be X du Sud following French grammar conventions.) I would prefer not to go with this name, because like Trombonist mentioned it depends on UL141's name. I don't know when or how UL141 will be named, but if helps, we could use "[UL141] du Sud" or "Franqueterre du Sud" while we wait.
But I also think it's important to consider how Franqueterre was created, because this influences the name:
  • If the explorers wanted to name the land after themselves, it would be named after the explorers (Colombia, for Columbus)
  • If Franqueterre revolted against UL141 for independence, the name might honor a revolutionary and not contain references to UL141 (Bolivia, for Bolivar; and not Nueva España)
  • If there was another Franqueterre nearby or if the historic state was divided, the name might include a geographic indicator (Corée du Nord and Corée du Sud) or capital city (Guinée and Guinée-Bissau)
  • If the settlers came from a specific region, they might use the name of that region (New Amsterdam)
Maybe it would be helpful to figure out the history of the region, which may show us what the land might have been named. Chazeltine (talk) 18:15, 25 May 2019 (CEST)

History

Alright, it seems that a lot of the things that could go on the map regarding (Insert Name Here) would rely on the history of the region. So here's my proposal (for now disregarding other nations):

Pieces:

  • Going based on Broceliande's history, the first settlers would have arrived in Broceliande around 1150. It is likely, then, that other settlers would have landed at similar points in time around the south Tarephian coast, from Balavalonia to Soboko.
  • According to PortCal's drafts in Paroy, the first Franquese settlers arrived from Pretany (though maybe it will be changed to UL141) in the 1200s, which supports the former point, and sheds some light as to which direction the settlers came from, and thus which present-day countries were "Franquese-ified" first.
  • However, Tito_zz's article on Allendea states that Castellanese settlers arrived in 1536, which may present a conflict, if Franquese settlers already arrived in Tigeria and Broceliande much before.
    • There could've been a war with Castellan over Allendea, which in the end was won by Castellan.
  • As well, the Nahele Republic article claims that the first settlements were founded in the 1600s, thus presenting even further conflict.
  • Tigeria's article, for the moment, says nothing about any Franquese, but that Commonians (speaking Babelic) arrived from anywhere between 1000 to 1450.

Thus, based on the evidence, my proposal is...

Note: I'm using the term "Franqueterre" until another name can be fully integrated and chosen.

Year Event Countries Involved
1100-1175 The first explorers (most likely from Pretny, or UL141) landed in the first half of this time period, the first towns were founded at this time. It is possible that one city would have grown very large because it was appointed as the main trade centre from where the settlers came from, and that port would mostly supply the others (though they could also trade extracolonially). Further areas, such as Paroy and Allendea, may have been explored and settled in the latter half of this time frame. Drapeaubro.png Broceliande, Flag of Tigeria.png Tigeria
1175-1250 Official founding of the Franqueterre (likely, this means some sort of separation from the colonizing power). Drapeaubro.png Broceliande, Flag of Tigeria.png Tigeria (maybe ParoyFlag.png Paroy and Allendea-Flag.png Allendea depending on when the founding date was issued)
1250-1400 Other lands, such as Beaumontan, Northern Broceliande, Ferran, etc. are also discovered. In other words, the explorers turned North. For the areas already settled, cities are beginning to develop and the area is now having some semblance of a real country. Drapeaubro.png Broceliande, DrapeauBMT.svg Beaumontan, Allendea-Flag.png Allendea, Flag of Tigeria.png Tigeria, etc....
1400-1650 A time of Exploration, expansion, and development. The northern territories begin to develop within the first 50-100 years, and later are incorporated fully into the empire. It is likely that provincial subdivisions (i.e. the borders that define the modern-day nations) were drafted here. [Insert any possible colonies here]
1650 Begin of the end of Franqueterre. Domestic relations begin to overheat, and some nations begin to separate from the Franqueterre. It is likely as well, that the Commonians mentioned in Tigeria's, and Nahele's history, would have arrived to the area at this time, and the Castellanese from Allendea as well, causing some sort of skirmish. Any nations that decide to separate from Franqueterre at this time. Allendea becomes a Castellanese colony, splitting Damenstrom and Tigeria/Kotel from the nation (-> possible independence?)
1695 Official end of the Franqueterre. Any remaining resources/possessions would likely be transferred to the last country to leave (probably Beaumontan). DrapeauBMT.svg Beaumontan and any other countries that stayed until the very end.

Note that this is just a draft and always subject to change. It is also very difficult to unify the histories of all nations involved in specific time frames, so relatively large time frames are used.

(to be continued)

I intentionally set up 1200 as the date of Franquese colonisation in Paroy because I wanted it to connect to the Franquese history of Broceliande. Although I'm very flexible with the date of arrival, so if somewhere in the 1100s works better for the overall history, I'm totally okay with that. And indeed Pretany is just a placeholder for the time being, until there is an official Franquese homeland (maybe UL141). —PortCal (talk · bliki) 22:23, 19 August 2019 (CEST)
Alright. I think keeping 1200 as the "discovery date" for Paroy would make sense as it would show a gradual eastward expansion from spots of initial discovery in Broceliande and Tigeria. Once again, nothing is set in stone yet, so dotes are very flexible. --Thanks, Zekiel (talk) 12:58, 21 August 2019 (CEST)

I think Allendea could have been Franqueterre from 1150 on. As I plan to make a part of Allendea Franquese-speaking, near the city of Bervoie, that could have been the capital. Around the 1630s the Castellanese would have arrived, and have multiple wars with Franqueterre over Allendea. They would have conquered all of Allendea in 1659, including the Franquese-speaking part, which would have continued speaking Franquese informally. --Tito zz (talk) 12:47, 14 September 2019 (CEST)

Franquese Homeland

I notice that stjur is sketching ideas for the Franquese homeland in Pretany. I think this would be a good time to revisit our history and geography and think about how the Franquese arrived in the Lycene Tarephias. Is there anything we may want to let admin know so that we can maintain a plausible explanation for Franquese migrations? Chazeltine (talk) 18:10, 2 November 2019 (CET)

I agree, we should revisit this topic. The issue is highlighted even more now because it's still difficult to explain the migration and relative naval dominance of the Franquese in our region due to the fact that UL141 and related areas do not have easy access to the sea, and like Ingerland, do not have much necessity for a dominant navy. --Thanks, Zekiel (talk) 20:59, 3 November 2019 (CET)
This problem is the main reasons why we're trying to reorganize the geography in West Uletha. Currently my favorite proposition to fix the problem is this--Stjur (talkOGF) 21:10, 3 November 2019 (CET)
Unfortunately, I don't think that proposed river is ideal at all to explain Franquese navel dominance. It forces the proposed Franqueterre to be too reliant on Mazan for access to the sea, and that reliance will be a significant risk for Franqueterre. Now, if Franqueterre had political control over the entirety of the river (also quite unrealistic), much like Britain and France controlled the Suez Canal at one point, maybe Franquese dominance would be more realistic. Chazeltine (talk) 22:52, 3 November 2019 (CET)
If I could pick a Franquese homeland regardless of existing obstacles, I might choose to carve it out of the northern regions of Mperiye Sathriada; this way, the Franquese homeland will have access to warm water ports, will be reasonably located within the Romantian cultural area, and will be influenced by both Romantian and Mazanic cultures (much like France is today). This area of Mperiye Sathriada is lightly mapped, so I don't think it would be too difficult to repurpose it for a new territory. I would also point to AR045 as evidence that we can take owned territories and create new territories, provided that such an action will benefit the OGF community. Chazeltine (talk) 23:05, 3 November 2019 (CET)

Franquese Homeland Proposal.png

I don’t think my proposition is that unrealistic considering that both Mazan and the Franqueterre were part of a Romantian/Pretanic Empire back in the day. —Stjur (talkOGF) 23:11, 3 November 2019 (CET)

Why cant it be explained simply by a pact between Mazan and the French? Then it gives the French access while having to pay a few taxes or something right?--Happy mapping and God blesses you, ZK (talk) 23:26, 3 November 2019 (CET)

It's unrealistic. OK, maybe Mazan would be interested in some form of agreement that allows French to sail to the sea. But it's not only about Mazan. There are plenty of other states which had many other reasons to block French fleet. Let's take Demirhans who were kind of naval power, interested in colonization. Or UL116. I can believe that these countries didn't want to attack fleet of mighty Mazan but tiny and distant Franqueterre? Why not. To be honest I would rather put Franqueterre in UL141 as it was planned long time ago and (be aware, this is radical) create a big channel here, making the countries owned by Andy located on island. It would also resolve the question about Schwaldian and Florescentan expansion. --Rüstem Paşa Discussion 23:54, 3 November 2019 (CET)
Stjur, I strongly disagree with your sociopolitical analysis of the region. It's far too simplistic; the idea that two nations will have good relations because they historically belonged to the same empire is not always correct. Consider that Pretany and Mazan differ religiously, culturally, and geographically. Especially considering the religious differences, I highly doubt that Mazan would be open to Franquese dominance (like Rustem points out). To illustrate with a real-world example, we can look at India and Pakistan. Both were part of the British empire, but because of the bloody partition into religious states (among other things), they remain hostile towards each other even today. Next, Mazan uses a different writing system than Pretany; this is also an indication of each nation aligning itself with different cultures. If you want to demonstrate the idea that Pretany and Mazan are more closely related culturally, I would suggest using something like the Turkish alphabet or the Kazakh alphabet in Mazanic place names. Even geographically, the nations differ. Pretany is grassland while Mazan is desert. In any case, the map shows a clear divide of cultures, peoples, and geographies, so while there may be a shared history between Pretany and Mazan, I don't think that in itself guarantees that Mazan will provide Franquese access to the sea. Chazeltine (talk) 01:55, 4 November 2019 (CET)
It seems to me rather superficial of you to think that I think as simplistic as zhenkang in his comment above. Mazan is not a state set in stone, it's more than sure and obvious that the area will be reorganized administratively after the geography is done.
Quite a few users have made proposals on how to connect the Pretanic Lake/Sea to the wide ocean, I'll create a wiki sandbox on this when I’ll find time.—Stjur (talkOGF) 16:41, 4 November 2019 (CET)
This can actually be further discussed on the UL137 talk page. There are some interesting past discussions on UL137 by the way on the page.--Happy mapping and God blesses you, ZK (talk) 04:25, 8 November 2019 (CET)