User:Eklas/Bliki/2018/02/26

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Hi!

Today I'm revisiting one of the previous topics again. This time it's the age old question, Does Odrava need a subway?

I haven't posted last week because I was busy with redrawing a lot of the city core. The roads make more sense now - Odrava is almost starting to look like a real city - BUT there's always room for improvement. In addition, most of the land coverage (land use, whatever you want to call it) is now sketched out, 19 city wards can be seen on the map AND I've cleaned up and updated the city's wiki page with more information, improved text style, images and a voice memo of me pronouncing Odrava, so go check that out.

Does Odrava need a subway? revisited

The fault in our st...reets

I don't know how to explain this strange fascination with subways of mine - maybe it's some kind of secret deep desire I've been suppressing? I can tell you I do have some dark desires and they're not like this, but that's content for an entirely different website. Anyways. Odrava has grown in size and population since last April when I started drawing it. The population count is currently 841,000. (Note that I started drawing a bigger city, not that the population jumped up by 250,000 in a single year.)

The last time I was planning a subway network in the city, that was in October, I struggled with it a lot. But then I realized, the public transport network wasn't making sense because the city didn't make sense from an urbanist perspective. Four months passed and we're here, and the streets are kind of okay now. (While I'm at it I might also give a small shout-out to Ștefan aka Stjur, who helped me figure some things out: thank you Ștefan, I hope you get plenty of vitamin D because it's healthy.)

So yeah, anyways, the street layout is different now and the subway system was easier to plan.

Loading map...

Drabantia flag.png View on map

Transit. Key: rapid.

I did some calculations. If (without the metro) you hypothetically lived in Proudice (west), and your workplace was near the New University Hospital from two posts ago, it'd take you at least 40 minutes to get there by public transport. Which isn't exactly great, considering the two places are 12.5 kilometers apart from each other. It would absolutely make sense if people rather drove there by car then. And since I'm trying to make Odrava a progressive modern city with an attractive public transport service, I figured there needs to be something done about this.

I'm not a public transport expert by any means, but I commute daily. And honestly, I think that a frequent, reliable and convenient public transport net is worth gold. Isn't it kind of weird that in 120 minutes, you can get from Brussels to Amsterdam by train, or ride Prague's longest tram line 1.75 times? For me, the biggest benefit of the subway is that when I need to go to the other side of the city for whatever reason, it doesn't take me the whole day. Plus, rapid transit is high-capacity but doesn't actually take much space - this helps in city centers in particular, which would otherwise get clogged by all the buses and trams.

So, here they are: three subway lines, their stations and possible extensions. What do you say?

The green line in the west can end in Bohomulice. The blue line can be junctioned with the southeastern branch of the green line --Histor (talk) 21:52, 5 March 2018 (CET)
oh yea and i drew this too

March project: Railways 101

I figured I might finally do something useful for this community instead of just starting drama and dragging 11yo kids for their childish behavior. And many times when I'm browsing around the OGF map, looking for new, interesting places, I see a really well-mapped country/city that'd be perfect, if it wasn't for some poorly drawn unrealistic railways spoiling the view. Being a railway enthusiast - I mean mostly of the architecture and design, seeing some of the railways around here makes my eyes hurt.

While I'm definitely not a railway god, I did have to do a lot of research before drawing that 160 km railway last year, and I know stuff. So, I'm doing a special bliki edition next month. It's going to be a four-step guide to drawing basic railways, each Monday a new chapter:

  • Where do railways go? An overall introduction, brief history of railways in the world, their purpose, different kinds of railways (e.g. local, high speed, commuter rail, freight) - March 5th
  • Curves and terrain: When to use tunnels, how to draw bridges, how to ensure your railway has realistic curve and slope parameters, gauge, speeds, railways with multiple tracks - March 12th
  • Stations 101: Basic overview of railway stations, how to draw junctions properly, the journey of goods from factory to consumer, how cargo stations and classification yards work - March 19th
  • Depots and infrastructure: Drawing depots, turntables, service buildings, railway crossings, electricity - March 26th

I believe that most of the content will not be news to most experienced users, and that's okay, I'm not trying to brag about my knowledge. I just wanted to put together a better version of the OGF:Making realistic railways guide, which, while containing lots of useful information, could use some more structure and illustrations in my opinion. At the end of the month, I'd like to edit it too. My goal is to create a simple yet informative tutorial.

In addition, I'm teaming up with Alessa on the Monthly Challenge - the theme for March is going to be railways. Skilled users will be free to draw anything railway-related they like, and beginners will have the option of following my tutorial, where there's also going to be weekly exercise, which will help them to draw a simple railway track over the course the four weeks.


So, yeah, what do you say, does it sound good? Does the subway proposal look good? I'm always open to advice and I'm nervously excited for next month!

Monday bliki by Eklas
2020

Comments are v welcome

everybody's changing and i don't feel the same

This is cool! You text Stefan as well? He's helped me with Loravia too. I guess we both owe him a lot. ~~Michal (talk) 21:38, 26 February 2018 (CET)

yea i text a lot of boys 😏 --Eklas (talk) 07:41, 27 February 2018 (CET)
hehe ~~Michal (talk) 07:45, 27 February 2018 (CET)

Oh you're welcome honey, I did give you a lot of advice indeed, too bad I only see like 1% of my complex ideas on the map rn... yeah you independent gurl. Anyway, as always, great mapping, great country, great bliki (I still think Odrava doesn't need a subway but k). Subway map sketch is impressive, I've definitely not seen it before. Aw, also have I told you that I love your handwriting? ***Flawless. Just like your American accent. Can't wait for the next 4 blikis where you're gonna teach me bout dat railway stuff :) Also you already know I'm good with vitamin D, I had another "ice cream" today (und glücklicherweise habe ich die Verpackung sogar recyclet - oida was sagst du dazu digga?). Anyway, keep up the good work! 💛 --Stjur (talkOGF) 22:05, 26 February 2018 (CET)

new phone who this --Eklas (talk) 07:41, 27 February 2018 (CET)
If there was a subway in Odrava, I'd see it as some kind of crazy communist-era aesthetic of 'more power, even if it looks terrible'. Also, where are the crazy references to silly 2000's music in this bliki entry? FictiveJ (talk) 23:13, 26 February 2018 (CET)
It's funny because I haven't figured out the 20th century history of my country at all, so this is not an entirely unrealistic scenario. In real world, I think this should have been the case in Riga, Latvia, but then the locals protested and the USSR crumbled. (ps: everybody's changing is a 2004 song by keane) --Eklas (talk) 07:41, 27 February 2018 (CET)
OMG you two make me laugh :D <3 Turnsole80 (talk) 00:08, 27 February 2018 (CET)

For the metro, I think in the beginning you should have Metro A and B with no extension. Maybe have a metro-tram connection (See: Amsterdam Metro Line 51) at the west-end. Commuter rapid services for tramways might fix your problem (Meitetsu Gifu-Downtown Line and Meitetsu Ibi Line had express services run from downtown tramways to suburban railways. Both lines were abolished in 2005 tho). Nice hand-drawn map, by the way! --Austinhuang (talk) 03:30, 27 February 2018 (CET)

Thanks! Finally some constructive feedback. Actually yes, something like that is my plan. If you click on the stations in the interactive map, you can see their opening date. Line A could be originally planned as an underground rapid tram, that would explain the short distances between stations in the city center. The first 8 stations of line B would open in 1977 and line C in 1982. About the west, well, I'll see. I think the highest priority is to extend the subway to Bohumilice, because there is the city university campus. Maybe if I drew a bus terminus next to the subway station, there would be no more need for rapid transit further west. --Eklas (talk) 07:41, 27 February 2018 (CET)


Looking forward to the railway tutorial! I'm happy to chip in with my two cents as well once a first draft is complete, if there are any things left for me to add at all. About the Odrava metro; while I agree that Metros are a nice thing, and definitely not unrealistic for Odrava, I wouldn't necessarily agree that a 40 min commute is unreasonable for crossing a whole city with public transit. Also, one thing to have in mind when installing metros, is that naturally they reduce the number of passengers on the tram lines; that's all good as long as the system is still sustainable, but if tram lines have to be closed down (or are simply not built in the future) to ensure a reasonable degree of utilisation, the time gains from having a metro line (that runs faster than a tram obviously) can be greatly reduced for passengers for a number of reasons:

  • Firstly, because metro stops are further apart, even people living right "next" to a line now need to walk further to reach a stop.
  • Secondly, don't underestimate the time needed to get underground! You don't need to take it to Moscow-style levels to add another 5 minutes to the commute of your customers if they need to descend for what seems like eternity just to reach the platform, and then get up again once they reached their destination.
  • And last but not least, because metro lines can as you mention have much higher through-puts (at higher costs as well of course), they might replace (or just prevent the construction of new) tramway lines; a dense tramway net however has not only the advantages I listed above, but also 2 other: in addition to a closer stopping distance, a denser net also means that there is higher chance a tramway line is running in walking distance from your home, and you don't need to get there by bus in the first place. And secondly, a larger proportion of customers will be able to reach their destinations without transfers, as there can be more than one tram line per track as opposed to that kind of metro.

Now, I hope this isn't seen as a general argument against the metro in Odrava; just a couple of thought to keep in mind, that bigger-deeper-faster doesn't always mean better, and to carefully weight up the ups and downs of both types of transit systems ;) All the best Leowezy (talk) 11:15, 27 February 2018 (CET)

This is a good point actually. I wonder if the tram system alone would be enough to cover the public transport needs of the city? Turnsole80 (talk) 17:05, 27 February 2018 (CET)
Theoretically, yes. I'm just afraid that the city center, especially the busiest intersections, could easily become clogged from all the trams. This is what happened in Prague in the 1960s, and yet Prague's tram network in the center was much denser and capacitive then, than Odrava now. --Eklas (talk) 17:43, 27 February 2018 (CET)
You're not wrong. One of the reasons Sydney is getting it's trams back is because there are too many buses clogging up the city centre. Turnsole80 (talk) 20:32, 27 February 2018 (CET)
It is difficult to say in Odrava because cities of this size are usually at the border of efficiency of tram grids because it is impossible to send more trams on the particular line (for example there is a problem with stops because you have more than two trams at one stop at the same time crossroads, because the crosswise roads are blocked by trams). On the other hand there is plenty of european cities (especially in central and eastern Europe) with 700-800 thousands inhabitants, which have only tram system, for example polish cities Kraków and Łódź. Of course it is possible to have only trams in the city with more than one million inhabitants like was in Warsaw until 1995 but this system was far from efficiency (but there is one thing that makes evaluation hard - until 1989, uder communinsts rule private car owning was restricted and we had less than 100 cars for 1000 people, while current european normality is 600-800 and in less dense populated countries above 1000).
Ad rem, I didn't change my mind that that in Odrava 1,5 metro lines is enough. --Rüstem Paşa Discussion 17:52, 27 February 2018 (CET)

I'm totally looking forward to your upcoming blikis! With the metro, I think you're justly wrestling with how to connect the airport to the city center. I agree with Austin that line A is probably the most important link right now. It provide connection to the airport from the old city and new city. I know there's a tram link to Severní město, but the airport is still detached. The B line intrigues me because it really provides good connection to the east with Prop 1. Would you be open to a single line using the northern half of A and the eastern half of B? Given your really extensive (and brilliant) tram network, these two "halves" seem to be the lines that would be most extensively used based on population distribution. Then again, I could see that being a justifiable reason for keeping both. I think the C line is a bit much, simply because it appears redundant with the trams in the area that would appear quite efficient (fewer stops, less total passenger numbers, etc.) compared to the other areas. Basically, I think you can't go wrong with line A; the eastern 2/3 of line B are great, too; I'm not sure about the western 1/3 of line B, and line C seems like overkill. — Alessa (talk) 14:54, 27 February 2018 (CET)

Thank you for these comments, guys! I took them into consideration and I decided that line C is really redundant, I might just replace it with an extra tram line. I'll keep line A in full extent, except I'm still not sure about the section between Severní město and the airport. There's a similar situation in Prague, where you have to transfer to a bus at a subway terminus in the suburbs, and it seems to work (except our glorious engineers forgot to build escalators in the station, so people would have to take the stairs with their suitcases. then the station also flooded during a heavy rain in 2016 because the drain system worked poorly. the station was opened in 2015. but that's a different story.) Line B will start in Bohumilice near the university campus, and I decided on drawing branch 1. I might replace the second branch with better tram and bus connection to branch 1 stations. Does that seem better? Thanks --Eklas (talk) 17:31, 27 February 2018 (CET)

A good 850.000 inhabitants and three subway lines ? Either you found the goose laying the golden eggs (I mean government subsidy or whatever) or your proud citizens will wipe your city government away in the next election year. The idea is good, the concept applaudeable - certainly from transport point-of-view - but it's too much of a good thing economically, methinks. --Marcello (talk) 20:45, 27 February 2018 (CET)


Maybe Line C can be a so-called extension to any subway line. I feel that the tram can connect to those subway stations through extensions, but I think buses should do it.

Besides drawing a 'spiderweb' of trains, connectivity between various modes of transport is important. There should be like transport hubs besides the one in the central. Maybe for the airport you can create one?

Singapore's Changi Airport did not have a subway station until only in 2001 or so. That is because there are already bus connections to the airport from the city. I am not sure how is the bus system like in Odrava, but if there is too many buses to there it is unprofitable to build a subway there. I wonder if you can instead extend line A elsewhere and create a short branch line, like Singapore's east west line.

I also could not wait for the upcoming blikis! Singkangia is under the process of moving, but when all the cities are aligned, I will build a new train system (railway and subway) in Singkangia.--Happy mapping and may God bless you, ZK (talk) 00:09, 28 February 2018 (CET)


Regarding the subway; I for one think it is certainly not impossible to have three subway lines for a city with 850.000 inhabitants. There are plenty of examples in the real world Europe. Even with a quite complex tram and bus network, it is not unusual that some get replaced with higher capacity transportation on some high demand/overcapacity corridors. Sometimes this can be light rail and nowadays also light metro (think VAL), but could perfectly justify a heavy subway line. Line A looks like a good first line, especially with the upcoming airport extension, which would make it very popular with tourists and business commuters. Line B together with the first proposed branch looks fine too, serving the university and the residential areas. The most western part of Line B looks a bit weird though as there are already a railway and a tram line that follow the same direction. But Line C looks a bit overdone. I think an extension to an existing line like the second branch of Line B would make more sense before starting on a separate line.

Like Zhenkang said, although the subway connects to tram lines at many stations, it also crosses some railway lines. But other than the main stations in the city centre, there are no real interchanges at the railway stations on these lines. I can imagine – from a traveller's perspective – that when you get off the train, and there is a tram or subway line running nearby anyways (like at Jerovice, Horovice and Severní Mésto railway stations) a transfer would be efficient. This way you do not have to travel all the way to the city centre first and then go back. The other way around, people willing to travel by train in the 'suburbs' can get on a train while bypassing the city centre. Such a place can also serve as a secondary transit hub. Just stuff to think about.

But furthermore, exciting stuff! I'm looking forward to your railway blikis. —PC (talk · bliki) 04:53, 28 February 2018 (CET)


Thank you everyone for putting the time and thought into commenting, I appreciate it very much. (And sorry for taking a long time to respond, I'm kind of busy this week.) In conclusion, I'm going to downsize a bit, as I've explained above replying to Alessa. The connectivity to other transport modes is something I will have to work on, especially regarding the transfer subway-railway. Hey, maybe that could be my March challenge objective? Thank you for your support. --Eklas (talk) 14:14, 28 February 2018 (CET)