View source for Talk:OGF:Global collaboration

==Rethinking table?==
I like this idea, but for some reason I'm finding the table rather hard to process.  What about something like the one below?  It may be harder to fill in, and I know it's not always easy to classify countries into simple categories, but I feel like it would allow us to more easily see which countries were in general ideological alignment at which points in time, and form historical blocs based on those alignments. (Just filling in this example table haphazardly, btw. The classifications of individual countries aren't necessarily meant to be accurate.) Any thoughts? --[[User:Isleño|Isleño]] ([[User talk:Isleño|talk]]) 22:21, 22 January 2016 (CET)
: Politics. Hard not to avoid some heated discussion ;-) But, Woolonia moving from "more to democratic/less socialist" doesn't seem accurate to me. In my book, socialism and democracy aren't mutually exclusive in any way. I realize Americans equate socialism solely with communism, but what about Europe's many great social democracies? And in truth, by most non-U.S. definitions, the U.S. is definitely a social democracy - social welfare is undeniably key to the well-being of the populace, just look at the social security system (and the name might just give you a clue...). I think this needs a much better description. Or just change socialism to communism if you want to take an easy way out. That's my two-cents. --[[User:Demuth|Demuth]] ([[User talk:Demuth|talk]]) 13:22, 23 January 2016 (CET)
::"Left leaning democraty" shall be not have real communistic structures, but strong "social-democratic" (in european sense). If a land has a real communist structure (as the formerly UdSSR and the satellites), I think it is better, to sort this land in "left wing dictatorship" (???) --[[User:Histor|Histor]] ([[User talk:Histor|talk]]) 14:30, 23 January 2016 (CET)
::Well, not to get heated, but...;) There is a definite issue of left/right & democracy/dictatorship - there are likely, at some stage to be democratically elected 'communist' or even possibly 'fascist' countries in OGF, if there aren't already (although is that then a dictatorship cf. 'dictatorship of the proletariat'?). I would say it is for the user to decide whether a country, whatever it is called, goes in one of those columns or another (i.e. to let us compare apples with apples - similar government systems with other similar government systems). This table format can't deal with situations where there are 'democratically elected dictatorships' graphically - or at least I can't see a way for it to do that. But it does simplify the situation very well if we want to use it to develop shared history. To build on it I was thinking was a 'notes by country' table below this one which links to the present table. Won't be able to do that today though. There may also be issues with colonies that split - eg how would you put Vietnam in 1950-1970 (do you think the Ionadàlba example works or is it too clumsy?) I've added some 's's to the decade column. --[[User:Udilugbuldigu|Udilugbuldigu]] ([[User talk:Udilugbuldigu|talk]]) 14:45, 23 January 2016 (CET)
:::I was just being nitpicky, really. I think the table placement was totally accurate, it was the footnote I was taking issue with. And I agree with Histor, communism should probably go under dictatorship, so my suggestion for Woolonia to be communist wasn't a good one. I think really the footnote description for Woolonia should be "more centrist/less left"  instead of "more democratic/less socialist." Being less socialist doesn't mean being more democratic was my point, it could mean the opposite in fact. --[[User:Demuth|Demuth]] ([[User talk:Demuth|talk]]) 15:48, 23 January 2016 (CET)
::::Demuth, I understand what you mean, it's just that Woolonia did lean more towards a dictatorship style government, but it was democratically elected. It still has some socialist tendencies now (in a positive way, like the U.S. or Canada, like you said :) ) But it during that period was very much more like a dictatorship due to outside forces- except- it wasn't actually a dictatorship; while the socialist party had an almost dictatorshiplike control over politics, it ''was'' democratically elected. I put it as democracy because technically, that's what it was- the issues came in with the alliances made ''with'' socialist and communist dictatorships, as the dictatorships dragged Woolonia into a lot of situations they didn't want to be in and that hurt the nation. I'll change the footnote slightly, but I'm not sure there's a better way to categorize it. --[[User:Ernestpcosby|Ernestpcosby]] ([[User talk:Ernestpcosby|talk]]) 20:18, 23 January 2016 (CET)

==Timeline table==
{| class="wikitable" width=100%
|-
! rowspan="3" style="text-align:center;background:gray;color:white" |Year
! colspan="8" style="text-align:center;background:gray;color:white" |<big>Character of government</big>
|-
!colspan="3" style="text-align:center;background:black;color:white" |Less<br>democratic
!colspan="3" style="text-align:center;background:white;color:black" |More<br>democratic
!rowspan="2"|Anarchy/Other<br><small>(see notes<br>below table)</small>
|-
!style="background:#ffb3b3" |Left-leaning<br>dictatorship
!style="background:#ffe5b3" |Centrist<br>dictatorship
!style="background:#b3d9ff" |Right-leaning<br>dictatorship
!style="background:#ffe5e5" |Left-leaning<br>democracy
!style="background:#fff7e5" |Centrist<br>democracy
!style="background:#e5f2ff" |Right-leaning<br>democracy
|-
! style="text-align:center;background:gray;color:white" |<big>'''1900s'''</big>
|
|{{Ionadàlba}}<ref>Lairdship o'Ionadàlba</ref>
|{{Mahhal}}
|{{Arataran}}<br>{{Neo Delta}}
|{{Freedemia}}<br>{{Karolia}}<br><small>—{{Commonwealth of Elhadia}}</small><br>{{Wiwaxia}}<br>{{Zylanda}}<br>
|{{Ardisphere}}<br>{{Forrintië}}<br><small>—Drulle<br>{{Ingerland}}<br><small>—Ingerish Suvuma<br>—Prot. of Khaiwoon<br>—Onnutu Colony</small><br>{{Latina}}<br>{{Woolonia}}<br>{{Ostermark}}<br>{{Demacia}}<br> 
|{{Commonia}}<ref>Explanation of Commonia here</ref><br>{{Ūdzđąnąrąt}}<ref>Explanation of Ūdzđąnąrąt here</ref>
|-
! style="text-align:center;background:gray;color:white" |<big>'''1910s'''</big>
|{{Arataran}}
|{{Ionadàlba}}
|{{Mahhal}}
|{{Neo Delta}}<br>{{Woolonia}}<ref>Woolonian socialism grows 1912 in response to rapid modernization, common man movement</ref><br>
|{{Freedemia}}<br>{{Karolia}}<br><small>—{{Commonwealth of Elhadia}}</small><br>{{Wiwaxia}}<br>{{Zylanda}}<br>
|{{Ardisphere}}<br>{{Forrintië}}<br><small>—Drulle<br>{{Ingerland}}<br><small>—Ingerish Suvuma<br>—Prot. of Khaiwoon<br>—Onnutu Colony</small><br>{{Latina}}<br>{{Ostermark}}<br>{{Demacia}}<br> 
|{{Commonia}}<br>{{Ūdzđąnąrąt}}
|-
! style="text-align:center;background:gray;color:white" |<big>'''1920s'''</big>
|{{Arataran}}<br>{{Woolonia}}<br>
|{{Ionadàlba}}
|{{Mahhal}}
|{{Latina}}<br>{{Neo Delta}}<br>
|{{Forrintië}}<br><small>—Drulle<br>{{Freedemia}}<br>{{Ingerland}}<br><small>—Ingerish Suvuma<br>—Prot. of Khaiwoon<br>—Onnutu Colony</small><br>{{Karolia}}<br><small>—{{Commonwealth of Elhadia}}</small><br>{{Wiwaxia}}<br>{{Zylanda}}<br><br>
|{{Ardisphere}}<br>{{Ostermark}}<br>{{Demacia}}<br> 
|{{Commonia}}<br>{{Ūdzđąnąrąt}}
|-
! style="text-align:center;background:gray;color:white" |<big>'''1930s'''</big>
|{{Arataran}}<br>{{Ionadàlba}}<br><small>>({{Soviet of Stachen}})<br>{{Woolonia}}<br>
|
|{{Mahhal}}<br>{{Ionadàlba}}<br><small>>({{Ionadalba Mhor‎}})
|{{Ardisphere}}<br> {{Ionadàlba}}<br><small>>({{Republic of Álba‎‎}})<br>{{Neo Delta}}<br>{{Wiwaxia}}<br>
|{{Forrintië}}<br><small>—Drulle<br>{{Freedemia}}<br>{{Ingerland}}<br><small>—Ingerish Suvuma<br>—Prot. of Khaiwoon<br>—Prot. of Onnutu</small><br>{{Karolia}}<br>{{Latina}}<br><small>—{{Commonwealth of Elhadia}}</small><br>{{Zylanda}}<br>
|{{Ostermark}}<br>{{Demacia}}<br> 
|{{Commonia}}<br>{{Ionadàlba}}<br><small>>({{Ionadàlban Anarchists‎‎}})<br>{{Ūdzđąnąrąt}}<br>{{Woolonia}}<br><small>>({{Woolonian Traditionalist Rebels}})<ref>Traditionalist movement unofficially breaks off of Woolonia</ref><br>
|-
! style="text-align:center;background:gray;color:white" |<big>'''1940s'''</big>
|{{Arataran}}<br>{{Woolonia}}<br>
|
|{{Ionadàlba}}<ref>Ionadàlban Civil War, 1934-42</ref><br>{{Mahhal}}
|{{Ardisphere}}<br>{{Neo Delta}}<br>{{Wiwaxia}}<br>
|{{Forrintië}}<br><small>—Drulle<br>{{Freedemia}}<br>{{Ingerland}}<br><small>—Ingerish Suvuma<br>—Prot. of Onnutu</small><br>{{Karolia}}<br><small>—{{Commonwealth of Elhadia}}</small><br>{{Khaiwoon}}<ref>Khaiwoon independence, 1934</ref><br>{{Zylanda}}<br>
|{{Latina}}<br>{{Ostermark}}<br>{{Demacia}}<br> 
|{{Commonia}}<br>{{Ūdzđąnąrąt}}<br>{{Woolonia}}<br><small>>({{Woolonian Traditionalist Rebels}})
|-
! style="text-align:center;background:gray;color:white" |<big>'''1950s'''</big>
|{{Arataran}}<br>{{Woolonia}}<br>
|
|{{Ionadàlba}}<br>{{Mahhal}}
|{{Ardisphere}}<br>{{Neo Delta}}<br>
|{{Forrintië}}<br><small>—Drulle<br>{{Freedemia}}<br>{{Ingerland}}<br><small>—Ingerish Suvuma<br>—Prot. of Onnutu</small><br>{{Karolia}}<br><small>—Elhadia</small><br>{{Latina}}<br>{{Wiwaxia}}<br>{{Zylanda}}<br>
|{{Khaiwoon}}<br>{{Ostermark}}<br>{{Demacia}}<br> 
|{{Commonia}}<br>{{Ūdzđąnąrąt}}<br>{{Woolonia}}<br><small>>({{Woolonian Traditionalist Rebels}})
|-
! style="text-align:center;background:gray;color:white" |<big>'''1960s'''</big>
|{{Arataran}}<br>{{Woolonia}}<br>
|
|{{Mahhal}}
|{{Ardisphere}}<br>{{Neo Delta}}<br>{{Wiwaxia}}<br>
|{{Elhadia}}<ref>Elhadia independence, 1956</ref><br>{{Forrintië}}<br><small>—Drulle<br><br>{{Freedemia}}<br>{{Ingerland}}<br><small>—Ingerish Suvuma<br>—Onnutu (home rule)</small><br>{{Karolia}}<br>{{Latina}}<br>{{Ostermark}}<br>{{Zylanda}}<br>
|{{Ionadàlba}}<br>{{Khaiwoon}}<br>{{Demacia}}<br>
|{{Commonia}}<br>{{Ūdzđąnąrąt}}<br>{{Woolonia}}<br><small>>({{Woolonian Traditionalist Rebels}})
|-
! style="text-align:center;background:gray;color:white" |<big>'''1970s'''</big>
|{{Arataran}}
|
|{{Mahhal}}<br>{{Drull}}<br>
|{{Ardisphere}}<br>{{Neo Delta}}<br>{{Wiwaxia}}<br>{{Woolonia}}<ref>Woolonian socialist dictatorship thrown from power, democratic election of 1978 </ref><br>
|{{Elhadia}}<br>{{Forrintië}}<br>{{Freedemia}}<br>{{Ingerland}}<br><small>—Ingerish Suvuma<br>—Onnutu (home rule)</small><br>{{Ionadàlba}}<br>{{Karolia}}<br>{{Khaiwoon}}<br>{{Latina}}<br>{{Ostermark}}<br>{{Zylanda}}<br>
|{{Demacia}}<br>
|{{Commonia}}<br>{{Ūdzđąnąrąt}}<br>{{Woolonia}}<br><small>>({{Woolonian Traditionalist Rebels}})
|-
! style="text-align:center;background:gray;color:white" |<big>'''1980s'''</big>
|{{Arataran}}
|{{Elhadia}}<br>{{Suvuma}}<ref>Suvuma independence, 1973</ref>
|{{Mahhal}}<br>{{Drull}}<br>
|{{Neo Delta}}<br>{{Onnutu}}<ref>Onnutu independence, 1978</ref><br>{{Latina}}<br>{{Wiwaxia}}<br>
|{{Ardisphere}}<br>{{Forrintië}}<br>{{Freedemia}}<br>{{Ingerland}}<br>{{Ionadàlba}}<br>{{Karolia}}<br>{{Khaiwoon}}<br>{{Woolonia}}<ref>Woolonia retains socialist tendencies but moves toward a social democracy model from pure socialism in 1984, new constitution</ref><br>{{Ostermark}}<br>{{Zylanda}}<br>
|{{Demacia}}<br>
|{{Commonia}}<br>{{Ūdzđąnąrąt}}<br>{{Woolonia}}<br><small>>({{Woolonian Traditionalist Rebels}})
|}

'''Notes:'''<br><div style="column-count:3;-moz-column-count:3;-webkit-column-count:3"><references/></div><br><hr><br>

==Discussion==
:I personally really like this table, @isleno!! :) However, I feel like both cover information not fully covered by the other; what about putting this table on the bottom of the other page? The first table could be to help figure out alliances and powerblocks, while the second (the above one) would be more for figuring the individual history out beyond the blocks and making it all work out. What dou you think? --[[User:Ernestpcosby|Ernestpcosby]] ([[User talk:Ernestpcosby|talk]]) 22:47, 22 January 2016 (CET)
::We may also need some notes in the talk section here of what we specifically mean by "left leaning/right leaning" --[[User:Ernestpcosby|Ernestpcosby]] ([[User talk:Ernestpcosby|talk]]) 22:50, 22 January 2016 (CET)

@ Isleño - great, love it, better than the other one I think. It pulls everything together very clearly. I can see it is complicated and will get more complicated as countries are added. But I agree it looks there is even a way to get 'powerblocks' out of it - that is if we assume that countries with similar governments would naturally align together, exceptions permitted. The only thing is that we may end up with a very big notes section. I'll think about that, there will be a solution. If nobody objects I'd replace the old table with this one. --[[User:Udilugbuldigu|Udilugbuldigu]] ([[User talk:Udilugbuldigu|talk]]) 22:59, 22 January 2016 (CET)
:I have no problem with replacing it but can we at least leave it there for a while to transfer the information over? The information for Freedemia and Woolonia is only in that table. I haven't been able to transfer anything out yet because that history isn't set in stone yet. Or should I put the stuff into the table here now before it gets moved? --[[User:Ernestpcosby|Ernestpcosby]] ([[User talk:Ernestpcosby|talk]]) 23:05, 22 January 2016 (CET)
::@Ernest - I'm happy to sort out all the current countries and info for a new table, but it won't be today. I don't know if it would be better to get rid of the old table or not, but I think 2 similar tables wouldn't be necessary and could add complication. Still, one way I was thinking of resolving the number of notes issue would be to tabulate notes, somehow, but not today. The old table could move to talk page for some days for transition. --[[User:Udilugbuldigu|Udilugbuldigu]] ([[User talk:Udilugbuldigu|talk]]) 23:43, 22 January 2016 (CET)
:::Thanks for the feedback, Ernest & Udi.  Whatever you guys want to do is okay by me.  I've adjusted the notes so that they display in three columns, so hopefully take up less vertical space.  I'm still a little worried that people will have problems figuring out how to add their countries in...  It won't be easy, but maybe we'll see how it goes? --[[User:Isleño|Isleño]] ([[User talk:Isleño|talk]]) 00:08, 23 January 2016 (CET)

:What, can I ask, should we show for monarchies with little or no democratic factions? Should these come under right- or centrist dictatorships?--[[User:Sarepava|Sarepava]] ([[User talk:Sarepava|talk]]) 20:32, 23 January 2016 (CET)
::@Sarepava - I think an absolute monarchy would count as a dictatorship, the alignment would mostly be centrist but could be right (I suppose dependent on the 'extent of oppression').
@Ernestpcosby - I think it looks as if Woolonia should at some points be a left-leaning dictatorship, on the basis that if it is a 'one-party state' theremust be an element of dictatorship. The party may have come to power through democratic elections, for example, but a 'one-party state' has, by definition, dis-empowered other political factions or parties (and there may be a case that even a 2 party state could do this). The power may be vested in more than one person i.e a poliburo, but it is still a dictatorship.--[[User:Udilugbuldigu|Udilugbuldigu]] ([[User talk:Udilugbuldigu|talk]]) 22:00, 24 January 2016 (CET)
 
An alternative way we could organise the left/right categorisation below:


==Table v2==
{| class="wikitable" width=100%
|-
! rowspan="3" style="text-align:center;background:gray;color:white" |Year
! colspan="8" style="text-align:center;background:gray;color:white" |<big>Character of government</big>
|-
!colspan="3" style="text-align:center;background:white;color:gray" | &#x2190;<br>More<br>democratic
!colspan="3" style="text-align:center;background:white;color:gray" |&#x2192;<br>More<br>autocratic
!rowspan="2"|Anarchy/Other<br><small>(see notes<br>below table)</small>
|-
!style="background:#ffe5e5" |Left-leaning<br>democracy
!style="background:#fff7e5" |Centrist<br>democracy
!style="background:#e5f2ff" |Right-leaning<br>democracy
!style="background:#ffb3b3" |Left-leaning<br>dictatorship
!style="background:#ffe5b3" |Centrist<br>dictatorship
!style="background:#b3d9ff" |Right-leaning<br>dictatorship
|-
! style="text-align:center;background:gray;color:white" |<big>'''1900s'''</big>
|{{Arataran}}<br>{{Neo Delta}}
|{{Freedemia}}<br>{{Karolia}}<br><small>—{{Commonwealth of Elhadia}}</small><br>{{Wiwaxia}}<br>{{Zylanda}}<br>
|{{Ardisphere}}<br>{{Forrintië}}<br><small>—Drulle<br>{{Ingerland}}<br><small>—Ingerish Suvuma<br>—Prot. of Khaiwoon<br>—Onnutu Colony</small><br>{{Latina}}<br>{{Woolonia}}<br>{{Ostermark}}<br>{{Demacia}}<br>
|
|{{Ionadàlba}}<ref>Lairdship o'Ionadàlba</ref>
|{{Mahhal}}
|{{Commonia}}<ref>Explanation of Commonia here</ref><br>{{Ūdzđąnąrąt}}<ref>Explanation of Ūdzđąnąrąt here</ref>
|-
|}

I will try and do a diary entry on this soon. Any thoughts on table v1 vs table v2? --[[User:Udilugbuldigu|Udilugbuldigu]] ([[User talk:Udilugbuldigu|talk]]) 21:18, 5 February 2016 (CET)
:I do like v2 better. Easier to understand. Perhaps they might want to put a small thing below the table just explaining what we mean by right leaning and left leaning and dictatorship vs. democracy just so there's no questions, and I do like the idea of a notes table, but I like it! --[[User:Ernestpcosby|Ernestpcosby]] ([[User talk:Ernestpcosby|talk]]) 21:56, 5 February 2016 (CET)
::Moving this version of the table to the main page--[[User:Udilugbuldigu|Udilugbuldigu]] ([[User talk:Udilugbuldigu|talk]]) 01:19, 15 February 2016 (CET)