Talk:OGF:Sandbox/World War

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This page is for the collaborative development of a project to create a believable historic 20th century global conflict in OGF. As a collaborative project it has been given an 'OGF' namespace. As a project in development, it is currently in sandbox. Once the project has reached a good stage of development it will be moved to a non-OGF regular page.--Udilugbuldigu (talk) 00:01, 13 June 2016 (CEST)

The page summarises a series of discussions and debates, including the following diary entries:

If you know of any others then add them here.

The main consensus from the debates is that there was a world war in OGF (but just one war) and it took place in the early 20th century between 1930 & 1955. We will try to resolve the remaining questions on this page.

Outline

The reasons to have a war in OGF

A historic world war shaped many of the borders and boundaries we see on world maps, particularly in Europe but also in Japan and Asia. The scale of the destruction, especially in WW2, meant that massive restructuring was necessary to many large cities. Although road plans did not usually alter significantly, many cities saw entire suburbs rebuilt, a process which stretched on into the 1970s. Monuments and memorials, as well as cemeteries, are a feature of many maps within the wares where the conflict was intense, as well as in the homelands of those countries which were not occupied, but suffered mass military casualties.

Wiki page

Introduction

The introduction, without giving any names, sets out the general background behind the war. The general text could read something like:

The X War, also known as the Y War and the Z War was a global war that lasted from 19xx to 19xx, although related conflicts began earlier and were, in some places, resolved later. It involved the vast majority of the world's nations — including all of the great powers — eventually forming two opposing military alliances: the As and the Bs. It was the most widespread war in history, and directly involved more than xxx million people from over xx countries. In a state of "total war", the major participants threw their entire economic, industrial, and scientific capabilities behind the war effort, erasing the distinction between civilian and military resources. Marked by mass deaths of civilians and the strategic bombing of industrial and population centres (in which approximately x million were killed) and including, at its close the use of atomic weapons it resulted in an estimated xx million to xx million fatalities. These made the war the deadliest conflict in human history.

Facts

Name

A name is not yet decided upon for the war. The best option may be to add suggestions here and vote on them later.

So far we have:

  • The World War
  • The Great War
  • The Long War
  • The x-years War (number to be determined)
  • The Global War
  • The General War
  • 'The War'
  • Thh War of The World
  • The Biggest War
  • The War of Wars
  • The [main belligerent]-[main belligerent] War

(and so on, please add your suggestions)

Dates

The causes of a global war would be likely to be linked to the politics, social structures, ideologies and technology of the era. The combination of these provoked two real world global conflicts in the early 20th century. The OGF world is different, but because we have many similarities to the real world, especially in terms of our countries technology, economics and societies, there is likely to have been a similar combination of events that ‘sparked the fuse’.

In the real world, expansionism, imperialism and a network of treaties, some of them secret, lay behind the First World War. However, it would be possible to extend these dates later into the 20th century, or ‘tie over’ the societal structures and technology from that era into the 1930s or even 1940s.. It could be argued that WW2 was a resumption of WW1, so it would be possible to combine these two wars into one, probably longer, possible more spread-out, war. Hence start dates in the late 1930s to early 1940s are most likely. For the war to have included the use of nuclear weapons, an event which played a major role in determining the real world for the next 40 years, and beyond, the earliest end date must be 1945. This date was at the technological limit for the use of atomic weapons, in spite of the effort to produce them being spurred on by WWII.

Causes

There were many causes of the 2 real world wars. They were factors in different countries to different extents. A non-exhaustive list might include:

  • Border disputes
  • expansionism
  • politics, both national and global
  • technological development
  • economics
  • social structures, particularly the class system
  • high birth rates and high male:female ratios in the younger part of the population in some countries
  • ideologies
  • Military or industrial rivalry
  • treaties
  • religious differences
  • ethnic supremacy and conflict
  • restore old lands of X country

(and so on, please add suggestions) All these have parallels in OGF. Different countries would have different primary factors which can be used to develop a country's individual history (or, for countries which have developed histories, to serve as background for involvement in a war).

I think we should start here, with the cause. The hardest challenge will be not to default to some kind of good-bad narrative, oftentimes there is quite an abstruse cause and effect chain from the initial spark to the first actual act of war. I think first we should think of some situation that would create political tension between two or more countries, like some fight about trading issues etc. Then, an internal crisis, be it economical or ideological, could favour the radicalisation of a country's politics, which would then turn against the other nation. From there, the conflict could develop "freely" due to complex military alliances etc. Leowezy (talk) 12:14, 13 June 2016 (CEST)
I think this might be slightly tricky. Any large war is bound to have multiple long term and short term consequences that will be spread across several countries. I think this will require further discussion. It will also tie in with when the war starts, which is also a big question that is yet to be answered. Yuanls (talk) 12:30, 13 June 2016 (GMT)
I agree with a lot of this, but I missed something quite important off that list - I've added it. The main cause of both real World Wars was expansionism. By that I mean one country (or group) wanting trying to impose its will on another. That expansionism was aligned with other factors, in different countries. That the conflicts happened when they happened was due to many other things (most are on the list), but the way they happened was heavily dependent on the military technology at the time. A spark between two countries could certainly be something that set off The War - but we haven't got ideas for sparks yet. Whatever it is, having 'alliances' partly set up before we decide the spark should help us get further. So please carry on filling in the list. Btw soon we can do another diary entry to decide if and how to vote on some of these points--Udilugbuldigu (talk) 22:53, 14 June 2016 (CEST)
I hope I'm allowed to jump in here. First, I think the nature of OGF seems less conducive to some of these factors and more in favor of others. Since most of our nations are spread so far apart and with little immediate interaction, it is likely that border disputes and military rivalries would be limited. It's not that they wouldn't exist—I just think there are not that many of them. The space between our nations and the fact that many seemed to have had diplomatic relations back into the 19th century or earlier suggest that trade, resources, economic factors would be a more likely fuse in this world. On the one hand, a nation like mine (Mauretia) is most likely not going to care much about a border dispute between Neo Delta and its neighbors (just as a random example). It's also too far away for the Maureti military to be too directly involved even if there were a treaty of some kind. A dramatic event like the closure of the Mecyna canal would rile up a lot of nations, however. That has the potential to disrupt global trade and topple trade-based economies. Mauretia would absolutely send some of its naval forces to reopen the canal. They were trade-dependent at that time. In retrospect, we often look back at causes of wars as being minor or trivial events in isolation. But, nothing happens in isolation. I could imagine Commonia manipulating the world's coffee markets and causing a series of trade disputes that escalated. That would literally be a war that started over 'a hill of beans' (to use the English idiom) but would be justified in the minds of a lot of nations. Why? Market manipulation and trade disruption could greatly effect already fragile economies. Maybe the world was teetering on the edge of a 'great depression' as was a factor in the lead-up to WW2. This could easily be combined with technological advances, too. Maybe there was something as simple as the advancement of flight that threatened to undermine the sea-based trade. The possibilities are endless, but I think this might be more plausible as a global fuse. Other issues would then be secondary. Østermark might be involved due to a treaty with Wiwaxia or Orinoco but then take its aggression out on Nucia, spreading the war. I just don't see nations like Paxtar or the OIOI caring much about the animosity held on that eastern Ulethan island. Cheers. Alessa (talk) 16:13, 8 October 2016 (CEST)
The reason WWII grew to its size and scale was because alliance systems were so global. In reality, it was merely a series of smaller conflicts that merged into a single war. Events such as the Sino-Japanese War and the Soviet border conflicts have their origins in the early 1930s. China, Japan and the USA had little to do with Poland or anything that happened in Europe in 1939. It was only because of agreements such as the Tripartite Pact that the wars were linked up and the conflict became global. The wars in Russia, France, North Africa and the Pacific never linked up. East and West (Except for the USSR and the USA) were bound purely by diplomatic relations. So perhaps it could be said that there was a similar situation here as well. A series of 'smaller' wars and conflicts escalated through treaties and pacts into a global conflict. |Yuanls (talk) 20:54, 8 October 2016 (CEST)
I don't know if I can be a part of this, but just in case, I added my country to the Pot (if I am not, then I will remove it). On the point made by @Yuanls, I believe that another reason that the world wars (WWII in particular) became so global is also that the extent of the European colonial powers. During the Sino-Japanese and Soviet annexations of smaller countries which took place even before World War II, the wars did not go into chaos, and I want to attribute it to the countries' lack of overseas colonies. Even in the beginning years of the war, during the Phoney War, Germany had already invaded Poland, the Sudetenland, Austria, and the rest of Czechoslovakia without much consequence except Britain dropping propaganda Leaflets over German cities which did nothing except "to supply the continent's requirements of toilet paper for the five long years of war" -Arthur Harris, Marshal of the RAF. The war only really became global in 1940 when France surrendered (I would say) because her colonies were split amongst themselves whether to surrender too or to rebel. Then came war between the colonies where Free France invaded other French colonies.
Noting that, the same thing (or something similar) can be applied in the OGF world. In fact, resources can be a major player. We could see smaller, heavily industrialised nations invading their neighbors to grow food for themselves, or for precious, precious oil.

I'd like to express my point of view to this issue. What do we have in reality?

1. Main reason for WWI was major confict of global colonial empires. German and Italian nation states became united much later than British, French and Spanish, whereas German economy was equal and eventually took over British and became #1 in Europe. So, WWI was the confict of colonial powers.

2. As for WWII, the main rivals were ideologies — national-socialism in Germany, stalinist socialism in UsSR, capitalism in USA (however, there were also imperialsts like Japan and UK). Every country aimed to control as much land as possible and to establish its own world order and establish its own "ideal future".

3. Some countries have complete or near to that history sections on wiki, and some of them have communist period in their lifetime. Namely: Drabantia, Mallyore, my own country Podolia, Glaster (name other countries if you can think of, please). The main reason of this leftist and communist uprising may bethe general instability in the world (maybe the Great Depression?!). The leading left-wing superpower should be Suria, because it remains socialist up to these days in our timeline (am I right?), so probably it was such in 1940s-1950s also.

Assuming that and the fact that we have already decided there will be only one global war, I propose these variants:

1.The Global War can be held socialist and communist countries (possible name — Union of nations) against colonial superpowers such as Ingerland, Castellan, Forrintia (although now it is lost country) so on.

Possible reason — the support of guerrilla wars in the colonies, such as Drull; or for the control of Commonian anachy.

Probable outcome — the defeat and massive desintegration of colonial powers due to revolutions and uprisings. However, socialist states, being exhausted by the War, can no longer sponsor newborn independent countries and many of them remained in the sphere of inflence of their former sovereigns.

2. The Global War can be similar to WWI in real world (Europe = West Uletha), but 40-50 years later. Regardless of who'll be the winner, colonial powers weakened by the war cannot maintain authority in their colonies and decolonization begin.

What do you think about this? --Thermo nuclear (talk) 14:30, 4 October 2018 (CEST)

In a parallel universe I thought of: Triggered by a wave of political changes throughout the world, the socialists took control of western Uletha, Orano, northern Tarephia and Ereva to form a socialist superpower, with a breakaway by some communists in Central Uletha who allied with a theocratic government in Eastern Uletha. Eastern Uletha then got in a war against Commonia backed by the Federal States. Commonia and the Federal States merged to form another fascist superstate and conquered the southern half of the western continents including Kartumia. The world war rapidly escalated into an atomic war that wiped out almost half of the world population, and it ends in an uneasy truce, only to be broken soon after. By the 50s and 60s, much of the world has fallen victim to perpetual war, omnipresent government surveillance, historical negationism, and propaganda...Honestly why do we need a world war? Will it really affect the map in some way, or is it just an inner carving of roleplay?--Happy mapping and God blesses you, ZK (talk) 15:15, 9 September 2019 (CEST)
To be honest World War in OGF world seems impossible but series of small conflicts should be common. For our discussion I would like to present how Lenin seen the reasons for First World War (because of simplicity of his thoughts which is worthy in this discussion). After Congress of Vienna the established world order was based upon balance of power and sharing the new lands between several empires as colonies. But in the days just before the war all the world was discovered and divided so this was the first reason why World War broke out. He also divides world into effective colonial empires (stable politically and economically like Great Britain, France, partially Russia), rump empires (decreasing economically and in territorial extent, unstable economically like Ottomans, Austria-Hungary, partially Russia), pretenders (growing economies, omitted in Vienna so they mostly don't have colonies, Germany, Italy, Japan, USA) semi-independent states (Iran, China, small "indpedent" countries of Europe) and colonies. Using this theory we can see that both world wars were caused by the pretenders who used rump empires and semi-independent states, mostly as a source of manpower (side note: it is was worth to notice that in WW2 Soviet Union was among the pretenders and USA was effective empire). Other motives which were behind WW2 (like desire for revenge in Germany) were rather a path to power for new, warmongering political class, not real reasons why the war started. Even today the trade war between China and USA is de facto the fight between pretender and old but effective empire. In OGF I don't see anything like that. Countries are small and can't form continous blocks, the world was less colonized and all colonies are far from each other so there was nothing like Vienna order (because single countries never dominated the world that much). The only thing which seems possible here in OGF are wars for independence between colony and ruling empire or wars between neighbouring countries. --Rüstem Paşa Discussion 17:41, 9 September 2019 (CEST)
It is not impossible. In fact, it is illogical that we continue to stick our collective fingers in our ears and hum loudly whenever the subject of a world-redefining war like WWI or WWII comes up. The impact of a major global conflict or conflicts on the shape of society is profound, and to suggest that any one of us can map a realistic country without at least knowing if and when these conflicts took place is ridiculous. We have multi-page threads about what to name a damn river, for heaven's sake. We can't put together a community poll to finally put some years to the Great War(s)? The oceans and continents were named by community vote. We should do the same for this, because it's equally (if not more) important to the quality of the overall map. --Louis walker (talk) 18:00, 9 September 2019 (CEST)

Fronts

Possible fronts and flashpoints:

Sides

One of the hardest parts of determining a fictional world war is to decide which countries were on which side. There have been consistent requests that any World War in OGF should not mirror real world First and Second World Wars. Because many country's histories, including their historic ideology, has not been outlined in detail, it is not possible to attribute most countries on this basis in any case.

The lists below give some provisional indications of possible alliances. They are taken from semi-randomised allocation of countries to one of two pots. The third pot is for countries that are not major powers and have’ declared neutrality’.

These pots are not the final placing of countries,’’ just suggestions’’. All users are welcome to move their country from one pot to another (or to add countries that are not already in a pot). There is also the possibility that countries switched sides during the conflict, so the country being in one pot does not necessarily mean that it stayed in that pot for the duration of the war.

I suggest that users who are happy with their country being in the pot that has been suggested add their flag to the country name.

Table 1: Countries participating in war

A map of sides from the list on the left. Commonia is depicted as unaligned due to the north-south divide being undecided.

POT 1

 

POT 2

Table 2: Neutral countries

POT 3

Local, more detailed event outlines

Sigal Sea Front

preliminary map

The conflicts involving Flag of Bloregia.jpg Bloregia, Lost country.png Altavia and Eäßnordælånd Flag.png Eäßnordælånd were initially outlined in the Triple Country sandbox. A summary is added here for the purpose of involving other users, especially mappers of Flsg.jpg Pretany, Tircambry-national-flag.png Tircambry and Nordurland Flag.png Norðurland, in the discussion: Suggestion:

  • Altavia and Tircambry share an interest to protect the mining in Grandvale and to secure transports to the harbours in Anders Lang. Altavia also wants to reconquer Gaffelbyen. So they attack Eäßnordælånd.
  • Pretany conquers parts of Bloregia (orange on the map), but later the two countries ally with Eäßnordælånd (EDIT: and Norðurland) to attack the Tircambrian block in Altavia.
  • After ceasefire, there are three negotiating blocks: (1) Altavia & Tircambry, (2) Pretany & Eäßnordælånd, (3) Bloregia & Nodðurland. Complex negosiations result in border changes as shown on the map. --LemonKing (talk) 17:19, 11 September 2018 (CEST)

Third Beaumontan War of Aggression [Against Balavalonia]

Pre and Post war borders. The black line shows the pre-war borders.
- The green line shows the greatest extent of Balavalonia during the war.
- The orange line shows the greatest extent of Beaumontan during the war.

The conflict involves DrapeauBMT.svg Beaumontan and (currently) neutral Balavalonia 867317.png Balavalonia as a smaller war, but having few real bearings to the main war. The government officials of Beaumontan only used the war as an excuse to invade. A summary will be added soon for the purposes of the article. The worst outcome of the war is not the border gore at Hélien-Hossens, but the many Zone Morte areas all along the border. These areas have been so heavily bombarded by the Beaumontaise Navy or subjected to so much fighting that the area is unlivable due to chemicals such as arsenic in the soil or water, and an excess of corpses causing more environmental damage, etc.
Details

  • The Beaumontaise Assembly of Representatives estimates that a war with Balavalonia would be over within a few months, but the estimate turns out to be very far from reality.
  • Some trench warfare fought along the flatter areas of Halvortplads (Halveurt)
  • Urban warfare fought in several settlements along the border, most notably Hélien/Hossens
  • Smaller villages (Feynic, Gusille) evacuated, used as outposts by Balavalonian Defense Forces until either destroyed or captured
  • Limited naval engagements near Tragen Cove; Traegenhaven put under blackout
  • The BBI (Balavalonian Bureau of Intelligence) is formed to obtain information on Beaumontan troop movements.
  • At an unknown point of time, Balavalonian Parliament drafts Defense Plan Black, Balavalonia's absolute last resort should all other avenues of defense fail.
  • Beaumontan would employ tactics of long-range naval bombardment with its superior navy, but cannot attack anywhere much farther inland.
  • Cities and Villages, along with scorched earth, would be destroyed ruthlessly (such as Brouvonou, BMT) if it was deemed as an important target by the navy. The result is many destroyed citied and villages along the border.
  • Many Zone Morte areas are created because the area is "hostile to life" to such an extent that it cannot be used.
  • Regional laws on the rules of war are followed by Beaumontan, though not completely (i.e. Cities were bombarded if military targets were found be there).
  • Massive food shortages in both countries slowly erode both armies' abilities to fight. Beaumontan calls upon its allies to supply it with food at the very least; at best, join the war with Beaumontan.



Discussion

Notes

  1. Fascist until 1946, then communist, following a revolution and short civil war. May have changed sides as a result
  2. Kėzėpölān aligns with Mahhal
  3. Rightist nationalist democracy, civil war against communism 1945-1947.
  4. In this years they built an armed navy (not very strong) for the Aspheric Ocean Control for the Oriental Liberan Republic and its allies like Japan, but on a smaller scale.
  5. Neutral before 1946, then at war with Glastian communists until 1947
  6. Had a Hitler-like leader, invaded Wesmandy and was fought by both Wesmandy and Tircambry
  7. Likely to be the present day southern part of Final design.png Commonia and most? of Luciano Flag WC.svg West Commonia. Parts probably 'under occupation'
  8. This is assuming that the 'Commonia (S & W)' refers to the area where the Babelic-speaking culture is dominant. If the case is that Babelic is more dominant in the Commonian Confederation, please move Calliesanyo back to Pot 1 (NB I think CC is Ingerish-speaking component so you're ok - Udi)
  9. Including Egani Flag 1.png Niscavo
  10. Neutral untill Forrintian invasion
  11. Probably internally divided: Tapi Ra.png Tąpi Rā aligns with Latina, Shadze-Ma Flag.png Shadze-Ma 'under-occupation', Etena.png E'tena probably 'at war' with both sides and the others 'come into existence' after the war (maybe those islands were independent countries this time? So, not all part of the OIOI. ~~~)
  12. I'm thinking of having a short-lived breakaway republic in East Tircambry, which would be on the other side from Tircambry in the War. Who is on which side will depend on what ideological and other factors we decide on.
  13. Only the first year
  14. Wesmandy will be on the same side as Tircambry; i.e. the opposite side to the breakaway Tircambran Republic
  15. Drabantia did not participate in the war, however it had been struck by an economical crisis. As a result of the crisis, the government slid to the far-left.
  16. Major refugee rescuer.
  17. While Freedemia would have stayed out of the conflict and tried to act as a neutral peacekeeper, it is likely that it would have shown a small amount of distant non-military support for one side, most likely Pot 2 due to friend nations like Latina, The Ardisphere, Neo Delta, and Wiwaxia being on that side and the fact that it would have had no alliances with Woolonia at the time.
  18. Neutrality almost assured after 1870, but it would likely still be biased in its views of the conflict. The official government policy would be to retain open connections with friendly states (possibly Ataraxia, Mergany, Raiden, or Wiwaxia) but be strict in its non-belligerence. (See Portugal in World War II)
  19. Political and economic problems are prevalent in Rogolnika during the 1940's, so the ruling Conservative Party decided not to join the war to prevent further division.