View source for Forum:Global and regional issues/Discussion and vote: Name of OGF's historical parallel to the Roman Empire

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Fellow mappers, I have forked the discussion of the name of the "Romantish" empire from [[Forum:Global and regional issues/History of Ancient West Uletha and North Tarephia - Romantish Empire|its origination point]] to resolve this issue more directly. The discussion was brief, but there was a lot of discussion about using "tria" as a root. At the same time, I want to ensure that discussion has been sufficient and that users on the sea have a vote in the matter. &mdash; [[User:Alessa|Alessa]] <sub>([[User talk:Alessa|talk]])</sub> 02:27, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

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We must change the name of the Romantish Empire, using Rome in any type of way is counter active to our attempt to distance this empire from the Roman one. So I request contributions to a name, after that we will discuss and most probably vote. The Roman Empire was named by historians because of the influence of one city on the entire empire, and since we are trying to move from that comparison, we should not name the empire after a city. That being said, here follows my proposals.

- Nostro Empire (Coming from the Latin Nostro Imperium, or Our Empire, most likely the coloquial name that citizens would call the empire, since Nostro Mare was the roman name for the Mediterrenean, it wouldn't be so far fetched that the coloquial name of the empire would carry over through history).
- Triaum Empire (Reipublicae Popularis Triaum, Popular Republic of Tria, would be the official name of the Empire, but instead of being named after a city, it would be named after a people, the Tria people, even thought Tria means Three, we can consider the Tria a mithological name, maybe after three goddesses, family members or anything related to the number 3, I think Triaum is a nice name. {{Unsigned|Davieerr}}
:Just adding some corrections regarding the Latin used.  Reipublicae Popularis Triaum > Res Publica Popularis "Triadina" (adj for name of Empire)   Tria - Trias  Given the points mentioned  *The Extent of the Empire -  *The Name of the Empire - I think the idea for the name as proposed works. Imperium Nostrum can work. If we take trias (triad) as a base there are many options, given the declension (https://www.latin-is-simple.com/en/vocabulary/noun/16656/) a triad root may seem most reasonable. 
:So perhaps Triadine Empire from Imperium Triadinum. Other options from the adjective would be: -ānus, -ēnus, -iānus, -ūnus or -(i)ensis. Another option is using the nominative to form triassic: Triassic Empire - Imperium Triassicum.  *City, I would personally prefer using an existing city as Temisa or Costa or maybe even Rivador. It doesn't have to be a very large city as cities can be abandoned. {{Unsigned|Imperator}}

::I think Triaum is a great name and offers for some cool religious/cultural development regarding the "triad/three" element. --[[User:Arlo|Arlo]] ([[User talk:Arlo|talk]]) 00:15, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

:::Imperator corrected some of my latin and I believe we should either have the original Latin name be Imperium Nostrum (Nostro Empire in English), Triaum Empire (Triadian Empire/Trassic Empire, in english), Res Publica Popularis Triae/Triadiana. While the official capital should move away from the 3-simbolism, to avoid the city being names Tripoli, a very common name.
::: About location, Rivador, and Franqueterre in general are too inland for my taste, also, I doubt OGF:Rome would be abandoned, the thing is, most cities that were abandoned were rebuilt, just changed names because new languages and cultures came along, Ugarit didn't dissapear, it was rebuilt to what is nowdays Latakia, but its people and language changed, so we can consider the end of that chapter, since the continuity of the city was cut, same thing for Babylon, that had existed as the village of Babil up to the 1600's. But when talking about Rome, though the city was sacked multiple times, the level of civilizational advancement and lack of this pause in the city's history made for Rome to still have its existence preserved, even when the city lost most of its power. It still held simbolical value, so I doubt the city would have been abandoned. {{Unsigned|Davieerr}} 
::: Notice that Triae would mean that the name of the Empire/nation is Tria as Triae would be the genitive form of Tria. Triaum Empire is not possible as Triaum is not an adjective form, you could base an adjective on the genitive form which would be Triai - (Triaian Empire for example). [[User:Imperator|Imperator]] ([[User talk:Imperator|talk]]) 06:12, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
::::Thank you for the corection Imperator! I think we can all see that using Tria or a variation of it is coming along pretty well for a name 15:16, 25 March 2024 (UTC)Davieerr
:::::Glad these details about how the word would be used is being worked out. That said, please don't confuse the dialogue here with consensus as to the name of the empire. I would like to see if there are any other options out there, and we will need to have a broad community consensus here (much more than four or five people) in the forums on this before making it official. &mdash; [[User:Alessa|Alessa]] <sub>([[User talk:Alessa|talk]])</sub> 16:09, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
:::::I agree on both the sea and empire's name needing more consensus and maybe even another page for it, however, I do have a question for you, seeing how sometimes engagement here is slow and that tends to lead to the lack of anything being decided, how do you reccomend better helping this discussion? -- [[User:Davieerr|Davieerr]][[User:Davieerr|Davieerr]] ([[User talk:Davieerr|talk]]) 17:12, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
::::::Yes, these things can move slowly, but that is fine in my opinion. We want the people in the region to have an input on this. It's important that this be a site-wide discussion (or, at least, WU and interested parties). So, the best way to prevent the discussion from dying out is to encourage people to get involved here. The primary reason things don't get decided is that people decline engagement. That said, if there is noticeable movement toward something, I'm happy to set up the vote and run it. If this is a topic you're particularly passionate about, I recommend messaging the major regional players to get them involved. I'd love to see some input here from a key regional people like Martinawa, Olejowy, Geo, Kalh79, Vay, Izaland, and Timboh (maybe I'm forgetting someone off the top of my head?); these issues (imperial capital location and naming of the sea) really impact them directly—even if that input is agreement. It doesn't have to be just comments to the contrary. If the regional stakeholders show that they're on board with going to a formal vote on things like the name of the sea, I'll start it immediately. &mdash; [[User:Alessa|Alessa]] <sub>([[User talk:Alessa|talk]])</sub> 17:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
::::I do like some of the variants of the "Tria-" element posted here. "Triadine Empire" is probably my favorite out of the variants posted so far - sounds quite elegant to me. --[[User:Timboh|Timboh]] ([[User talk:Timboh|talk]]) 18:49, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
: I also support the idea of Tri(a)- as the root for the Empire name. In Plevian it might sound as Impero Triaco, Impero Triano, Impero Triota. 
--[[User:Izaland Terramorphing Committee|Izaland Terramorphing Committee]] ([[User talk:Izaland Terramorphing Committee|talk]]) 01:49, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
:: The trias root leads to Triadino in Italian, Latin, Imperium Triadinum (LAT), Triadine Empire (ENG), Imperio Triadino(ITA). Triaco, Triano, Triota are meaningless in Latin.  Tricano, Tricanus would work but would mean subterfugial empire basically. [[User:Imperator|Imperator]] ([[User talk:Imperator|talk]]) 06:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
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==Discussion==
Unlike other discussion, this topic had a confluence of discussion around "tria" as a root, but there are plenty of other issues to resolve with appropriate naming. I want to give another week or so for discussion and input of other name options. Should discussion become particularly active, the discussion time may be extended. I welcome proposals, including additional proposals that vary from previous discussions. At this moment, there is nothing that seems solid enough to put up for a vote. &mdash; [[User:Alessa|Alessa]] <sub>([[User talk:Alessa|talk]])</sub> 02:27, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
: My preference is for descriptive rather than prescriptive approaches.  This means I'm not particularly fond of "tria" as a root because it seems arbitrary and without basis in the map.  I would tie the name of the empire to a particular city, much in the same way that the Roman and Byzantine empires were, or to a founding dynastic house, such as the Ottoman empire or to a people, such as the Persian empire. It's a more difficult (but in my opinion, better) option which does require a period of mapping in the region so that the community can choose whatever names or histories appear organically on the map.  [[User:Chazeltine|Chazeltine]] ([[User talk:Chazeltine|talk]]) 04:11, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
:: Problem is I doubt there is sufficient time to plan out the history and decide on dynastic names and so on. I imagine it would be quite a nightmare to try coordinate a regional history, so it's better in the interim to come up with a vague and perscriptive name.--[[User:Zhenkang|Zhenkang]] ([[User talk:Zhenkang|talk]]) 06:30, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
::: There is always time on a project like this. We do not have to jump into a vote that is going to lock us into something few people like, if that is the case. The process can be equally prescriptive and descriptive. We would not have to come up with a full list or do a ton of regional coordination at the start. We can instead find a descriptive name and agree on its sole origins, filling in the rest around it later. This is not unlike how the Federal States came up with Huntington for capital and first president (regardless of what anyone might think about it) long before the rest of the presidents and key figures were figured out. The idea is that we ''can'' come up with something that fits for this name itself in a descriptive way, then worry about filling in history later.
::: Now, I've intentionally avoided expressing any personal opinions on the matter so far, but I agree with Chazeltine with regards to the name. I do not like it on numerous levels, and it seems unrelated to what little we do know on the map. &mdash; [[User:Alessa|Alessa]] <sub>([[User talk:Alessa|talk]])</sub> 13:06, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
:::: I think both a name based on a city or a generic name are equally viable. Plenty examples of each exist, note that the Byzantine Empire is a later invention by historians and inhabitants of Constantinopolis prior to 1453 would be bewildered were you to call them Byzantines. 
::::If a city were to be chosen for the name of the empire, I think Zari, Temisa or Costa are the most suitable candidates. I would prefer Zari I think as it makes sense as an original location for the latin language given the location of Castellán, Ellarca, Lustria and Franqueterre.
::::Another option would be a generic name and I think any name such as Splendid Empire, Golden Empire etc can work fine.
::::[[User:Imperator|Imperator]] ([[User talk:Imperator|talk]]) 17:06, 8 July 2024 (UTC) 
::::We have once said that there was no need for the Romantish Empire to be so connected to ''one'' city, so maybe a region or people's name can work? I was thinking, is there a need to create a new name? What if we use a name that already exists, using Osianopoli as a reference, Nascilia seems like a historical region (just like the latins in central italy and Italia for the peninsula). So maybe the Nascilian Empire? Since the Shelaks have gained more fame right now, we could assume that a Plevianian People influenced by Shelakia could start their empire, and Nascillia is somewhat in the Shelakian borders.
::::For me this would work also as to avoid giving power to one city that is being mapped, and instead having a region that is open for mapping to be the core of this culture. So I would assume this would later imply that Latin is Nascilian and Romantish Languages are actually Nascilian-Family Languages, but that is not relevant to this decision. I do like the sound of Nascilian Empire. [[User:Davieerr|Davieerr]] ([[User talk:Davieerr|talk]]) 17:46, 9 July 2024 (UTC) I think using a region as a basis is fine, but I would stick with the idea presented earlier by Mtejku223. Using Osianopoli as the basis area for and the Latin language and the Empire causes a myriad of issues. 
:::::https://ibb.co/wMdcXWs
:::::[[User:Imperator|Imperator]] ([[User talk:Imperator|talk]]) 18:49, 9 July 2024 (UTC) We have in that region, Agrato and Camberie, while we have Calepides, Aedi, Matarii, Meneri, Polondaves, Denisii, Lavontes, Liburei, Uletii, Hisantri, Semusses and Furgenii as people there. With those informations, I would take out Nascillia, and propose either:  Agratoni Empire/Agratonan Empire  Hisantrian/Hisantran Empire (Since I would say it makes more sense that a people around the bay of Civitelle to have been more advanced, with contact of people of other places).  Osianopoli being the empire's capital is still a must, but in this case, we can consider the history of expansion in the area being almost as if Pompeii had invaded Rome and made it it's capital (so we can consider Issak to be an important city, doens't mean that the culture revolved around that specific city). [[User:Davieerr|Davieerr]] ([[User talk:Davieerr|talk]]) 12:14, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
I feel like it's not ideal to tie the empire's name to a place - it's better if we can leave it more vague, in my opinion, to allow more flexibility in the future. For all we know, as mapping progresses in Franqueterre and elsewhere, the center of gravity of the empire might shift, making an origin in Plevia less likely. I'd like to propose the ''Culsevran Empire'', or a similar variation (Culseveran, perhaps, or Calsevan), from culseva, which is recorded (at least by wiktionary) as meaning doors/gates in Etruscan - perhaps the founding myth of the empire revolves around gates, or there's a geographic feature reminiscent of them in the capital. The etymology implies a city founded on the Mediterranean, but honestly I feel like it could be a latin name just as easily, removing that limitation.--[[User:Lithium-Ion]] | [https://opengeofiction.net/user/Lithium-Ion|OGF] ([[User talk:Lithium|talk]]) 16:51, 10 July 2024 (UTC)


I actually agree with you, even though I doubt we will change centers of power to Franqueterre, we can have a more......general not specific place name. I like the sound of Culsevran, maybe if could shift to Culsefran/Culsefrani, Culseviran Empire, since I think that vr would shift with time. [[User:Davieerr|Davieerr]] ([[User talk:Davieerr|talk]]) 01:05, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

==Voting==
Voting will commence when the discussion period is concluded.