Forum:Ingerland/The flag of Ingerland

The question of replacing the Ingerland flag has been raised because at least some people are not impressed with the current one. so this page is to discuss whether to replace it and, if so, with what.

The Flag

I have two issues with the current flag:

• What does it represent? In the European tradition, flags with crosses normally represent patron saints. The British Union Flag (aka Union Jack - UJ) contains three crosses for the patron saints of the three constituent countries of England, Scotland and Ireland, but Ingerland is supposed to be analogous to England only so it might make more sense to have a single cross. And what is the white lozenge (diamond) for? We could invent meanings for the flag's make-up, but ...

• Much more of an issue is the appearance. The blue cross has arms which are of different widths and their relative widths and angles vary depending on the flag's proportions. The red saltire merges directly on the blue near the centre, which doesn't work well, and the white lozenge is ... odd. The overall effect of the crosses' rays is to draw the eye to an overly busy intersection of colours around the white nothingness of the lozenge at the centre. It is disconcerting, jarring (in my humble opinion).

Do others feel the same? Do they want, or would they be happy with, a change?

Note: we could also tweak the original, there is no reason to preserve the wonky parts of it... /wangi (talk) 21:03, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Other countries which use the flag

The Ingerland flag is not used only by Ingerland but also by a number of ex-colonies, so if we want to remain historically consistent they would have to agree to a change too and should be included in any vote on a new flag.

The alternative is that the present flag is kept as a historical flag which ex-colonies retain while Ingerland decides on a change. This might simplify the process of change but, on the negative side, it keeps the unsatisfactory old flag in use. And why would Ingerland decide to change a long-established flag? It is unusual for an old established country to radically change its flag except through territorial union/split or some major ideological upheaval (e.g. revolution).

As far as I can see the other Ingerland flag users are: Bromley (and Ingerish Bromlavian Colonies), Deodeca (Ateria, Agawaskway, Kastichetshan, Ingerish Asperia, Nawagan, Peralia, and some national organizations), New Ingerland, and Toussaint in Arecales, FSA. Are there any others?

While it shares the same color palette, I wouldn't say the FSA flag is a direct descendent of the current Ingerish flag. -TheMayor (talk) 18:21, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Design

One feature of the current flag is that is reminiscent of the Union Jack because of its colours and cross-and-saltire combination. If there is to be a change, should the new flag continue to evoke a British or English feel? Ingerland is internally analogous to England only, but its historic international, imperial, role is more evocative of Great Britain / UK.

Pawl (talk) 08:44, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

What are your thoughts? Should we start a process of changing the flag?

Just putting my note in here as admin for a moment… I am completely fine with the idea of the flag changing, provided it isn't a complete rip-off of the Union Jack and that we can reach some type of broader agreement. If there is enough motivation to make the change, we will craft a solution of voting or consensus-building to make it as fair as possible. One thing I will note, however, is that I see not an absolute requirement for the former colonies to all be in agreement. Keeping the original as a legacy flag is certainly possible. There are two very, very easy ways to do this.

A thought to "soften" the landing may be to consider simply revising the existing flag. Could the vertical arms of the blue cross be reshaped to have the same angles as the horizontal arms? I know it will make for a very different 'white space,' but this minor change could easily be retconned into the cross of two saints superimposed. As for the diamond eye, simple tweaks could be considered there as well once the blue is reshaped. Something more simple like this may allow for the "distorted" original to have been kept for some legacy reason.

Another thing to note is that Deodeca, New Ingerland, and Arecales are all as far opposite Ingerland as is about possible in Archanta and nearby areas of Kartumia. Perhaps the flag legacy in these areas isn't the national flag of Ingerland at all but that of a trade company, colonial company, naval ensign, or other type of symbol that was retained. If these areas wish not to change, but all of Ingerland otherwise does, this may be a potential solution to keep the common legacy and connection back to the Ingerish motherland without using the exact Ingerish flag.

I'm not trying to suggest that these ideas are what should definitely be done. I just wanted to highlight for the record that a consistency of existing materials (should this be wanted) and the desire to change (if it is significant enough) can equally coexist and be honoured. We can find creative ways to do a lot of different options, even if we end up with two diverging opinions in the end. — Alessa _(talk) 13:25, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

I just think any attempt to revise the existing flag might make it too close to the Union Jack, which seems to be the original inspiration. Yet, The current Ingerland flag is a rather rudimentary attempt to abstract the original. I will like to mention that on the OGFC discord server there are ongoing talks of revising certain elements (keeping the white diamond, abstracting the diamond to a star, changing the stripes orientation etc).--Zhenkang (talk) 05:19, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

I was going to start posting Discord proposals here if and when there was a consensus in favour of change, but we haven't heard from any of the other stakeholders yet (Ingerland and ex-colony mappers). Pawl (talk) 07:37, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

As a whole I am open to change for both the flag and name of Ingerland as an ex-colony mapper (for context, while today's Free Reedemia is a combination of an Ingerish colony, a Castellanese colony, and a Rivagien colony, the colony of Ingerish Reedemia would have been a significant part of its history/the main part of what became Freedemia, and I've been trying to come up with a reasonable flag for it.) I do generally agree though that if our goal is moving further away from the Union Jack more fundamental changes of imagery or style may be needed. Ernestpkirby (talk) 07:08, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

I would like to see the flag change. The current version (no offense to the creator) is very busy and far too similar to the Union Flag, others have critiqued it accurately above. I agree that "Ingerland" is representative of England, not the UK, and because if this the current flag doesn't fit well. If you follow this link you'll see that European countries have had wildly different historical flags. Ireland for example is only recently associated with green in it's flag, previously it was nearly completely blue. We shouldn't be afraid of change.

There are a number of symbols associated with England that might serve as inspiration. Personally I like the various roses that have cropped up in English history but lions and crowns could be used instead. They could be made into a distinctive flag that looks good, has a genuine association with England but isn't a direct copy of any current English flag.

Wikipedia has some interesting imagery associated with the English royal families, royal standards and arms. A simple prompt allowed me to generate dozens of vaguely interesting flag alternatives with Bing Image generator. If the wiki can handle it I think the discord proposals should be posted here. It's difficult to discuss flags without seeing the actual images. Ruadh (talk) 07:13, 28 October 2023 (UTC)