View source for Forum:Ingerland/The flag of Ingerland

The question of replacing the Ingerland flag has been raised because at least some people are not impressed with the current one. so this page is to discuss whether to replace it and, if so, with what.

==The Flag==
[[File:Ingerland-flag.png|150px|right]]
I have two issues with the current flag:

*What does it represent? In the European tradition, flags with crosses normally represent patron saints. The British Union Flag (aka Union Jack - UJ) contains three crosses for the patron saints of the three constituent countries of England, Scotland and Ireland, but Ingerland is supposed to be analogous to England only so it might make more sense to have a single cross. And what is the white lozenge (diamond) for? We could invent meanings for the flag's make-up, but ...

*Much more of an issue is the appearance. The blue cross has arms which are of different widths and their relative widths and angles vary depending on the flag's proportions. The red saltire merges directly on the blue near the centre, which doesn't work well, and the white lozenge is ... odd. The overall effect of the crosses' rays is to draw the eye to an overly busy intersection of colours around the white nothingness of the lozenge at the centre. It is disconcerting, jarring (in my humble opinion). 

Do others feel the same? Do they want, or would they be happy with, a change?

[[File:Ingerland-flag-rectified.svg|150px|right]]

=== Other countries which use the flag ===
The Ingerland flag is not used only by Ingerland but also by a number of ex-colonies, so if we want to remain historically consistent they would have to agree to a change too and should be included in any vote on a new flag. 

The alternative is that the present flag is kept as a historical flag which ex-colonies retain while Ingerland decides on a change. 
This might simplify the process of change but, on the negative side, it keeps the unsatisfactory old flag in use. And why would Ingerland decide to change a long-established flag? It is unusual for an old established country to radically change its flag except through territorial union/split or some major ideological upheaval (e.g. revolution).

As far as I can see the other Ingerland flag users are: Bromley (and Ingerish Bromlavian Colonies), Deodeca (Ateria, Agawaskway, Kastichetshan, Ingerish Asperia, Nawagan, Peralia, and some national organizations), New Ingerland, and Toussaint in Arecales, FSA. Are there any others?

=== Design ===
One feature of the current flag is that is reminiscent of the Union Jack because of its colours and cross-and-saltire combination. If there is to be a change, should the new flag continue to evoke a British or English feel? Ingerland is internally analogous to England only, but its historic international, imperial, role is more evocative of Great Britain / UK.

[[User:Pawl|Pawl]] ([[User talk:Pawl|talk]]) 08:44, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
=== Initial discussion ===
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed">
What are your thoughts? Should we start a process of changing the flag?

:Note: we could also tweak the original, there is no reason to preserve the wonky parts of it... /[[User:Wangi|wangi]] ([[User talk:Wangi|talk]]) 21:03, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

:While it shares the same color palette, I wouldn't say the FSA flag is a direct descendent of the current Ingerish flag. -[[User:TheMayor|TheMayor]] ([[User talk:TheMayor|talk]]) 18:21, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Just putting my note in here as admin for a moment&hellip; I am completely fine with the idea of the flag changing, provided it isn't a complete rip-off of the Union Jack and that we can reach some type of broader agreement. If there is enough motivation to make the change, we will craft a solution of voting or consensus-building to make it as fair as possible. One thing I will note, however, is that I see not an absolute requirement for the former colonies to all be in agreement. Keeping the original as a legacy flag is certainly possible. There are two very, very easy ways to do this.
A thought to "soften" the landing may be to consider simply revising the existing flag. Could the vertical arms of the blue cross be reshaped to have the same angles as the horizontal arms? I know it will make for a very different 'white space,' but this minor change could easily be retconned into the cross of two saints superimposed. As for the diamond eye, simple tweaks could be considered there as well once the blue is reshaped. Something more simple like this may allow for the "distorted" original to have been kept for some legacy reason.
Another thing to note is that Deodeca, New Ingerland, and Arecales are all as far opposite Ingerland as is about possible in Archanta and nearby areas of Kartumia. Perhaps the flag legacy in these areas isn't the national flag of Ingerland at all but that of a trade company, colonial company, naval ensign, or other type of symbol that was retained. If these areas wish not to change, but all of Ingerland otherwise does, this may be a potential solution to keep the common legacy and connection back to the Ingerish motherland without using the exact Ingerish flag.
I'm not trying to suggest that these ideas are what should definitely be done. I just wanted to highlight for the record that a consistency of existing materials (should this be wanted) and the desire to change (if it is significant enough) can equally coexist and be honoured. We can find creative ways to do a lot of different options, even if we end up with two diverging opinions in the end. &mdash; [[User:Alessa|Alessa]] <sub>([[User talk:Alessa|talk]])</sub> 13:25, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

: I just think any attempt to revise the existing flag might make it too close to the Union Jack, which seems to be the original inspiration. Yet, The current Ingerland flag is a rather rudimentary attempt to abstract the original. I will like to mention that on the OGFC discord server there are ongoing talks of revising certain elements (keeping the white diamond, abstracting the diamond to a star, changing the stripes orientation etc).--[[User:Zhenkang|Zhenkang]] ([[User talk:Zhenkang|talk]]) 05:19, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

:: I was going to start posting Discord proposals here if and when there was a consensus in favour of change, but we haven't heard from any of the other stakeholders yet (Ingerland and ex-colony mappers). [[User:Pawl|Pawl]] ([[User talk:Pawl|talk]]) 07:37, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
:::As a whole I am open to change for both the flag and name of Ingerland as an ex-colony mapper (for context, while today's Free Reedemia is a combination of an Ingerish colony, a Castellanese colony, and a Rivagien colony, the colony of Ingerish Reedemia would have been a significant part of its history/the main part of what became Freedemia, and I've been trying to come up with a reasonable flag for it.) I do generally agree though that if our goal is moving further away from the Union Jack more fundamental changes of imagery or style may be needed. [[User:Ernestpkirby|Ernestpkirby]] ([[User talk:Ernestpkirby|talk]]) 07:08, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
:::: I want to make it clear that if the Ingerland mappers want the flag to change, this can be done while respecting the "former colonies." The primary stakeholders in this case are those in Ingerland themselves. Thus, if a majority of Ingerland mappers want a change, we can find a way to make that happen. &mdash; [[User:Alessa|Alessa]] <sub>([[User talk:Alessa|talk]])</sub> 14:04, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

:: I would like to see the flag change. The current version (no offense to the creator) is very busy and far too similar to the Union Flag, others have critiqued it accurately above. I agree that "Ingerland" is representative of England, not the UK, and because if this the current flag doesn't fit well. If you follow this [https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Historical_flags_of_Europe link] you'll see that European countries have had wildly different historical flags. Ireland for example is only recently associated with green in it's flag, previously it was nearly completely blue. We shouldn't be afraid of change.
:: There are a number of symbols associated with England that might serve as inspiration. Personally I like the various roses that have cropped up in English history but lions and crowns could be used instead. They could be made into a distinctive flag that looks good, has a genuine association with England but isn't a direct copy of any current English flag. 
:: Wikipedia has some interesting imagery associated with the English royal families, [https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Royal_standards_of_England_by_date royal standards] and [https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Royal_Arms_of_England arms]. A simple prompt allowed me to generate dozens of vaguely interesting flag alternatives with Bing Image generator. If the wiki can handle it I think the discord proposals should be posted here. It's difficult to discuss flags without seeing the actual images. [[User:Ruadh|Ruadh]] ([[User talk:Ruadh|talk]]) 07:13, 28 October  

::I am just catching up on discussions around Ingerland but I am very much in favour of a new flag. I do like Pawl's suggestion below but the shape is undeniably South African to me. Could we retain the colours but create a different shape? [[User:Myrcia|Myrcia]] ([[User talk:Myrcia|talk]]) 14:56, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
::It might be difficult to find a simple, effective flag in a style which hasn't been used elsewhere. The Y shape - a heraldic ''pall'' - has been around for centuries, and South Africa wasn't the first modern country to use it (I think that honour goes to Vanuatu). But I did come up with other ideas using the same colour scheme, which I have added below. I'm not sure I've ever seen a cross like the one in number 3 before. [[User:Pawl|Pawl]] ([[User talk:Pawl|talk]]) 15:59, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

==== Proposals ====

{| class="wikitable"
!No.
! style="width:200px" | Flag
!Notes
|-
| 0
| [[File:Ingerland-flag-rectified.svg|200px]]
|style="vertical-align:top | Current flag, corrected
|-
| 1
| [[File:Ingerland-flag-proposal1.png|200px]]
|style="vertical-align:top | [[File:Ingerland-archdiocese-arms.png|100px|right]]Retains British colours but no crosses. The explanation for it could be that it comes from the pallium in the coat of arms of the senior Ingerish archdiocese, which was taken as a national symbol for some historical reason TBD.
|-
| 2
| [[File:Ingerland-flag-proposal2.png|200px]]
| style="vertical-align:top | A cross pat&eacute;e, representing the patron saint of Ingerland. The blue perhaps represents the ocean on both sides of the country.
|-
| 3
| [[File:Ingerland-flag-proposal3.png|200px]]
|style="vertical-align:top |  A cross with curved corners and a star, representing the patron saint of Ingerland, who, perhaps, was inspired to his mission by the appearance of a bright white star in the sky.
|-
| 4
| [[File:Ingerland-flag-proposal4.png|200px]]
| style="vertical-align:top | Re. Alessa’s suggestion above, if the original flag description was vague and merely said “a blue cross patée on white, a red saltire, and a lozenge (diamond) in the centre”, without being specific about the detailed layout, both this proposal and the current Ingerland flag would conform to the specification. There may have been some latitude in interpretation in earlier centuries, leading to a divergence between (some) colonies and Ingerland.
|-
|5
| [[File:ingerland_proposal5.png|200px]]
|style="vertical-align:top | A simpler flag proposal with a red-white cross on a blue background. Meant to represent Ingerland's parton saint as well as the purity and sacrifice of the people in strive for independence and prosperity, while the blue represents the Ingerish people's conquest of the seas.
|}
</div>

===== Closing date for proposals =====
Does anyone else have any proposals they would like to add? Ideas are welcome from anyone and not just Ingerland mappers. I suggest we give it another couple of weeks - until the end of Sunday 3rd December (UTC) - for proposals, and then take it from there. [[User:Pawl|Pawl]] ([[User talk:Pawl|talk]]) 14:53, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

==Results of voting and final call for discussion==
I wish to start by thanking the Ingerland mappers for taking the time to discuss and vote on the flags. Many thanks to Pawl for running the vote and making sure everything was handled. The result of the vote showed that Flag 2 received the higher overall score, but the score with Flag 4 was close given the small number of total votes that were cast.

<gallery>
File:Ingerland-flag-proposal2.png|'''Flag 2'''<br />Highest total score in voting
File:Ingerland-flag-proposal4.png|'''Flag 4'''<br />Second in total vote score
File:Ingerland-flag-rectified.svg|'''Flag 0'''<br />Current flag, corrected
</gallery>

Given the potential site-wide interest in what happens to the Ingerland flag, I wanted to ensure that people had one more chance to weigh in before the Ingerland mappers decide which flag (Flag 2 or Flag 4) to adopt as their own. Please note that Flag 0 is not an option for modern Ingerland here. Discussion will be open for one week following this post. People are encouraged to comment, and Ingerland mappers with an invested stake are particularly encouraged to lobby for their preference. After one week from this post, the Ingerland mappers will be directed to make their final choice.

If there is interest in keeping Flag 0 among the former colonies, particularly in Deodeca and New Ingerland (among others), I propose the solution mentioned above that Flag 0 be adopted as the flag of the former colonial company that sponsored and organised the colonisation of the new lands. In this way, there can be both a historical connection back to the motherland, a retention of established canon, and a new cohesive layer of history to build upon.

Thank you everyone. I look forward to seeing what comes next. &mdash; [[User:Alessa|Alessa]] <sub>([[User talk:Alessa|talk]])</sub> 03:38, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

===Final discussion and thoughts===

[[Category:Ingerland forum posts]]