View source for Forum:Global and regional issues/Suvuma

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[[File:Old proposal Suvuma history.png|right|thumb|Original concept by Isleño, thanks to BMSOUZA for resurfacing]]
[[File:Old proposal Suvuma flag seal.png|right|thumb|Original idea for flag and seal by Isleño, thanks to BMSOUZA for resurfacing]]
In this thread, I'd like to open a discussion about the future (and past) of [https://opengeofiction.net/#map=6/10.984/103.865&layers=B Suvuma]. There is no urgent need for action, so the default course of action will be to leave the as-is status in place; but I think it's my role as regional admin to see if there might be a rough consensus in the community for a different way forward.

=== Background ===
Suvuma, a large tropical subcontinent in the South of East Uletha, has been marked as reserved for a collaborative project for a long time. Many years ago a then-admin of OGF, Isleño, proposed a concept for a history of this continent (see on the right), created a very realistic macro forest coverage with only very few agricultural areas being carved into the dense rain forest along the coast and some rivers, and partitioned it into sub-territories. The intended mapping style was probably in the medium income range, similar to South-East Asia or rural Brazil, but I cannot reconstruct that for certain. For reasons I also cannot reconstruct, the project never really took off - perhaps because of only limited interest in the intended style of mapping among the community, perhaps for other reasons. Since then, the continent has been in hiatus.

=== Ways forward ===
As far as I can see, there are three options how to proceed. Everyone feel free to suggest additional ones:
* A: Leave as-is, with the territory staying reserved for a future collaborative project
* B: If there is demand for a collaborative territory using a mapping style (i.e. language, climate, income, culture) that currently cannot be satisfied by existing blue or purple territories and that would instead fit in well with Suvuma, we could start a process to initiate a new collab. This would entail identifying a clear target theme for Suvuma; finding a suitable collab leader and at least three collaborators; drafting a new history and mapping outline; starting the collab.
* C: If there is no sufficient demand for another collab and we are relatively certain that such demand will not arise in the foreseeable future, Suvuma could be partitioned into three to five private territories that would then enter the list of available territories for new mappers. Besides ruling out A and B, this option would also entail thinking about which target theme this new area should get.

=== Discussion ===
Please use this section to discuss which way(s) forward you prefer. If you want to discuss any one option in detail, please do so in the respective section below. Don't forget to sign your comments using 4x~. Thanks! [[User:Leowezy|Leowezy]] ([[User talk:Leowezy|talk]]) 09:07, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

: I'm leaning towards A or B. Back on OGFC there were a couple of passing discussions, whether to make it like New Guinea or Papua (the shape is similar) or Madagascar. And the history outline quite reminded me of Sri Lanka's, because the Tamils, which once controlled British Ceylon, were forced out of power and were actively discriminated against since, which caused the civil war. 

: In one of the pre-2020 reorganisations, the Asperic region is also generally meant to be "Austronesian", or "Asperic". Another possibility mused was that it could have been "indianised". Given Suvuma's location, it's quite possible it could be at the confluence of various cultures between southern Uletha and Archanta. I say it's best to leave it reserved as an "open collaborative" of sorts, given it's rather strategic nature. 

: Anyway, for further reference, there was [https://web.archive.org/web/20180308180213/https://wiki.opengeofiction.net/wiki/index.php/Suvuma this archived version of Suvuma] from the old wiki. But there wasn't much beyond an outline given in the lead.--[[User:Zhenkang|Zhenkang]] ([[User talk:Zhenkang|talk]]) 10:24, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

:: Despite I am directly interested about it, because Goytakanya, I prefer first to read opinions before to say my one. Anyway, I want to repeat here what I said to admins when talking to them. When Goytakanya and Suvuma concepts was created, there was other times to OGF, when mentioning RW countries was only about environment, economy, etc, not about language or culture. Specially in this case, because the original idea was clear about poverty and ethnic conflicts, so, would be better to create new people than bring real ones to OGF. 

:: Me and Davieerr are moving Goytakanya closer to Telkarnatha and away to Suvuma, preventing if the option C was chosen, but I keep interested if A or B got more votes. 

Honestly all options don't seem very convincing. Or to be precise neither B or C options seem to take into consideration all factors which probably should be taken. First of all it should be said that forest should roughly stay as it is. I don't mean even a single node can not be moved but the plan should stay. Therefore some restrictions on the project should have been made to prevent complete deforestration. From that perspective collab (option B) is quite good to consider but I must say we have too many collabs at this point compared to very limited base of users who want to collab. Additionally collabs initiated top down (from admin to users) have rather... let's call it, moderate success, although that's mostly overstatement. Therefore I would refrain from option B.

Option C is also wrong. If you decide to partition Suvuma into several tiny territories it would lead to deforestration by users who want to maximize efficiency of terrain use for urban mapping. I agree, Suvuma is large by itself - 700k km2 is large from perspective of average OGF territory but 80% of it (judged by eyeballing) is that forest, which means only about 140k km2 remains for creative mapping without extensive deforestration. That is fully mappable for one user or for collaboration of two or three users. That leads us to the statement that option C is also wrong.

What I would propose is to make Suvuma available (green) in its current shape, just with constraints towards the forest and requirement of management experience in middle sized territory. If there would be one competent user who agrees to keep the forest, give it to them. If a group, give it to the group. But don't divide. If that is impossible, the only viable option for me remains A. [[User:Rustem Pasha|Rustem Pasha]] ([[User talk:Rustem Pasha|talk]]) 14:59, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
:I agree with Rustem. The groundwork for Suvuma remains solid and if one mapper or a group of mappers believes they can appropriately adapt it, either on their own or as a collaborative of some sort, I would support it, but in the meantime there’s no real need to subdivide or change the existing plans. -[[User:TheMayor|TheMayor]] ([[User talk:TheMayor|talk]]) 01:11, 31 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm very happy to see that there is finally a discussion surrounding Suvuma! I've been interested in the territory since I started on OGF, so I have some thoughts on the matter. I agree with Rustem that it doesn't make sense to split Suvuma up - the forest, borders, and general concept of the territory should be preserved if Option C is chosen. However, I am very partial to Options A or B - Suvuma is a very unique territory that has the potential for a really interesting blend of mapping styles in an interesting and important location. It's true that there is are a limited number of collaboratives, and although I would be very interested in leading it, I'm simply too busy to do so, though I would be interested in participating. --[[User:Lithium-Ion]] | [https://opengeofiction.net/user/Lithium-Ion|OGF] ([[User talk:Lithium|talk]]) 17:58, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

:Is there room for some mix of option A and option C (or A & B)? It seems like there is some room for protecting key parts of the island for a future collaborative (including the internal forest) while also allowing for a couple smaller territories around the edges somewhere for mappers experienced in the style if any exist/are interested. [[User:Ernestpkirby|Ernestpkirby]] ([[User talk:Ernestpkirby|talk]]) 06:05, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

:Just to be entirely clear on my view on this, I don't think it should have any territories carved out of it. If the consensus is that it should remain closed for the time being, there are plenty of tropical territories (including some island territories) that can be mapped in the same/similar style. [[User:Lithium-Ion]] | [https://opengeofiction.net/user/Lithium-Ion|OGF] ([[User talk:Lithium|talk]]) 23:19, 30 January 2025 (UTC)

Though I have minimal knowledge of how to map themes outside of the USA/FSA I would be interested in doing rural mapping in this nation if it becomes a collab! Though like I said I don't have knowledge in whatever theme it would end up being I will try to learn it so what I make can be as accurate as possible. I agree with Rustem Pasha that the nation should not be split up but I think it would be hard for one person or a small group to map a nation of such size. I dont know what would be best for the territory though it becoming a collab even if that means waiting a long time, I just know I would enjoy mapping it.
Also, what is up with the way its split up? It looks like the FSA with collabs in a collab. [[User:MiniMapper|MiniMapper]] ([[User talk:MiniMapper|talk]]) 22:51, 30 January 2025 (UTC)
: I would be willing to be coordinator because I have almost all day every day to work on OGF but the problem is I am not smart and would require others for help on more complex things [[User:MiniMapper|MiniMapper]] ([[User talk:MiniMapper|talk]]) 03:09, 1 February 2025 (UTC) 


I am also happy to see that Suvuma is finally being discussed, as it has been several years and I have not heard a breath about Suvuma. I might as well give my thoughts. In my mind, I would like there to be many collaborative territories that feature different mapping styles on OGF. This gives plenty of new users interested in a particular mapping style a chance to practice coordinating with others whilst improving their mapping (which would be essential if the user eventually applies for their own territory). This is why I'm partial to Option B. I'd be fine with option A, but I will say that I am not in favor of option C. Like others have mentioned, users would simply "deforest" the subcontinent and over-urbanize the country, which I am not particularly fond of. Although I would be interested in coordinating, I have to put most of my time to school at the moment. I would still love to contribute if option B is chosen. I am interested in hearing your thoughts! --[[User:Geoc3ladus|Geoc3ladus]] ([[User talk:Geoc3ladus|talk]]) 02:46, 1 February 2025 (UTC)

I am sure that this will be a very unpopular opinion, but I feel that Suvuma, in it's current location, is out-of-place. It doesn't make sense geologically, as a result of natural plate tectonics. It, as a massive island in the middle of the ocean, looks "ugly". And I am also not sure if any collaborative theme would be successful. Out of the various collaborative options, I'd be most interested in a very low income, "Papua New Guinea" esque collab, where motorways and trunk roads are banned and small villages are mapped across the jungles in multiple different conlangs. Whatever option is chosen, I'd advocate for Suvuma to be relocated to somewhere more peripheral, where the island is more "aesthetic" and there less pressure on the mapping being top quality. I would also say that just deleting Suvuma is a good option: the forest mapping is excellent, but that's all it's got and I think it's a relic of the past that doesn't fit in very well anymore. [[User:Gubble|Gubble]] ([[User talk:Gubble|talk]]) 15:59, 1 February 2025 (UTC)

:I think the reason why Suvuma looks rather out of place there is just it looks rather large and randomly smacked into the ocean. But then you could argue that's like Australia. Nevertheless, I don't think deleting the island would be an option, but I think a slight adjustment (tilting a bit to align with a general "chain" that goes from the Gobras Peninsula to Lutang) might make it look better.--[[User:Zhenkang|Zhenkang]] ([[User talk:Zhenkang|talk]]) 04:30, 4 February 2025 (UTC)
1st - I don't believe that either the island, or it's location are wrong, with this type of line of thinking, places like the island of Sulawesi, or the Italic Peninsula would probably have been banned from OGF. 

2nd - Waiting for a better time ignores the fact that people present interest on Suvuma now, and though it seems a lot, the mapped area would be generally small. [[User:Davieerr|Davieerr]] ([[User talk:Davieerr|talk]]) 13:02, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

==== General ====

==== Option A====
# [[User:Zhenkang|Zhenkang]] ([[User talk:Zhenkang|talk]]) 10:24, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
# [[User:Rustem Pasha|Rustem Pasha]] ([[User talk:Rustem Pasha|talk]]) 14:59, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
# [[User:ParrotMan|ParrotMan]] ([[User talk:ParrotMan|talk]]) 04:15, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
# [[User:TheMayor|TheMayor]] ([[User talk:TheMayor|talk]]) 01:11, 31 January 2025 (UTC)
# [[User:Izaland Terramorphing Committee|Izaland Terramorphing Committee]] ([[User talk:Izaland Terramorphing Committee|talk]]) 14:58, 1 February 2025 (UTC)

==== Option B====
# [[User:Davieerr|Davieerr]] ([[User talk:Davieerr|talk]]) 01:39, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
# [[User:MiniMapper|MiniMapper]] ([[User talk:MiniMapper|talk]]) 22:51, 30 January 2025 (UTC)
# [[User:IiEarth|IiEarth]] ([[User talk:IiEarth|talk]]) 04:18, 31 January 2025 (UTC)
# [[User:Geoc3ladus|Geoc3ladus]] ([[User talk:Geoc3ladus|talk]]) 02:46, 1 February 2025 (UTC)
# [[User:BMSOUZA|BMSOUZA]] ([[User talk:BMSOUZA|talk]]) 02:56, 1 February 2025 (UTC)
# [[User:Petons|Petons]] ([[User talk:Petons|talk]]) 18:11, 4 February 2025 (UTC)
# [[User:Kyunzi|Kyunzi]] ([[User talk:Kyunzi|talk]]) 05:05, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

It seems like option C is not liked at all, with roughly equal preferences between A and B. For those interested in participating in a collab (B); please comment here by adding a new line to this table. That way we can get an overview over whether there is actual demand for (yet another) collab. If other collabs already offer suitable mapping opportunities or to few mapper would be able to invest time, we will stick to option A for now.

{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Mapper !! # of territories/collabs currently involved in !! intended level of participation !! ideas for theme (language, culture, level of development) !!
|-
| [[User:BMSOUZA|BMSOUZA]] || 6 countries: {{Brasonia}}, {{Luslandia}}, {{Novakia}}, {{Telkarnatha}}, {{Cariocas}}, {{Goytakanya}}; 1 collaborative: {{Florescenta}}; 1 FSA state: {{Orange Coast}} || Strong contributor or Collab lead || Basically following the initial plans as shown in the picture in the top of this article. A "complicated" country, with corruption, ethnic conflicts, etc. Ah, with conlangs hehehe! Based in what RW languages? Well, maybe Indians or SW Asians in general...
|-
|[[User:Kyunzi|Kyunzi]]
|1 ({{Miuro}})
|Strong contributor or Collab lead
|Since there are Indian languages at islands northwest of Suvuma and Austronesian languages southeast, I think that the island could roughly be split in half in terms of linguistics (Indian languages occupying northwest, Austronesian languages occupying southeast). I'd imagine that the level of development is extremely low, with the main transport to other places on the island being boats and ships.
I also like other mappers' ideas, such as Apawiland's because it makes sense that there should be a link for Brahmic influence to reach regions like Majesia and Lutang, hence the Brahmic-derived scripts. I like minimapper's idea of cultures and languages relating to Colombia or Venezuela being present (like Chibchan or Arawakan).
|-
| [[User:MiniMapper|minimapper]] || 1 FSA State: [[Oakley]] (may be -52 soon may not); 2 FSA Collabs: New Carnaby and Eustacia|| Occasional contributor or Strong contributor depends|| I will learn the theming of whatever place it is decided on. If I had to guess what theme it would be I would say Colombia or Venezuela. Language could really be anything but most likely will end up a mix of three or four languages. I would be quite active if I end up with the ability to map the -U sector as it will be "rural" due to the distance for most things it appears while having still a good amount of population.
|- 
| [[User:Geoc3ladus|Geoc3ladus]] || Owned Territories: {{Alebria}} ({{Riopoderos}} {{Kastichetshan}}; <br> Contributor to: {{Plevia}} {{Gharbiya}} {{Valony}} {{Ingerish Asperia}} || Occasional-Frequent Contributor || Given that Suvuma is surrounded by mostly Austronesian and Dravidian languages/cultures, it would make sense that Suvuma would be of either group, or a mix between the two. Given how Suvuma is characterized by dense rainforest throughout most of the subcontinent, perhaps there could have been a separation between the two cultures at some point (perhaps primarily Austronesian in the SE). Isleno's brief history seems to support the idea of a handful of cultures living on the subcontinent at some point int history. The closest real-world analogue I feel, when it comes to climate and culture, would be that of tropical South Asia. I like BMSOUZA's idea of having a "complicated" country that is dealing with ethnic conflicts, either due to prolonged separation of cultures, Ulethan colonization, or both. I also expect Suvuma to be less-developed, dealing with significant povert and wealth inequality. Any way, whatever is decided for Suvuma, I will put in effort to adapt.
|-
|[[User:Petons|Petons]]
|Samuria (UL17h), Contributor to Suria
|Occasional contributor
|I think it is a somewhat undeveloped country, with a mix of
some S.A. countries' languages, or SW Asian countries.
|-
| [[User:iiEarth]] || 1 ({{Apawiland}}) || Occasional contributor || I propose taking the South Indian (Dravidian) theme from west coast Commonia and moving it to Suvuma instead. This would be an excellent position for it, as Southeast Asian scripts (such as Javanese used in Majesia) were all derived from the Pallava script from South India. Thus, Suvuma would act as a transition from North India (eg. Jambukhand) to Southeast Asia (eg. Majesia). It'd be good to incorporate Oceanian themes too, like having a Goytakanyan minority in Khorys to keep with the former history of the region.
|-
|[[Davieerr]]
|Owned Territories: [[Tempeira]] 
Collaborations: [[Florescenta]] [[Telkarnatha|;Telkarnatha]] 
|Strong contributor or Collab lead
|Firstly, I don't believe there is any need into changing the geography of the island, as I find it well defined thanks to or old patron Isleño. I do believe that the island can serve as home to dravidian languages and austronesian (more specifically, polinesian) languages, as we can see, Taiwan is theorized to be the birth place of polinesian cultures. I believe that divided could be basically between the jungle area and the rest of the territory.
|-
|[[Mtejku222]]
|Collaborations: {{Plevia}} {{Huaxia}}
|Occasional or strong contributor
|I support the chiefly Dravidian low-income country proposal, with either a South- or a SE-Asian mapping style -- no preference. However, I find it hard to believe that all the main Dravidian languages would be able to coexist in a small area (the densely populated north is about the size of Sri Lanka), so, as much as I'd love to see them all together, it might be wiser to just settle on one or two.
|-
| Examplicus || 2 (X-land, FSA state Y) || occasional contributor / strong contributor / collab lead || description
|}

==== Option C====
#...

=== Result ===
Considering the broad and committed interest in starting a Suvuma collab, the project will be initiated. After talking to interested members, [[User:Davieerr]] will be the project's initial coordinator. For members interested in participating in the actual collab, a new forum post to discuss the internal workings of the collab and to decide on an outline for mapping Suvuma will be up in a few days - and eventually linked here. Please note that before mapping can commence, these two topics have to be dealt with in the aforementioned forum post. Best! [[User:Leowezy|Leowezy]] ([[User talk:Leowezy|talk]]) 13:03, 17 February 2025 (UTC)