Forum:Territory application/UL07e - Mardoumakhstan (exchange from UL02i)

Forums → Territory application → Territory application/UL07e - Mardoumakhstan (exchange from UL02i)

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File:Noun Project Signature icon 619326 cc.svg	Territory ID and proposed name
	The Territory ID (from OpenGeofiction:Territories, e.g. AR123a) and proposed name of the country

UL07e - Mardoumakhstan

This was the former name of the territory when it was owned by User:Stjur, and I'd like to keep it. If there's a problem with re-use, I'm happy to name it Burghutistan (Burgut meaning eagle in Uzbek).

I am requesting this territory in exchange for Arion (UL02i). I realize that this is an increase in size compared to Arion, but I ask admin to consider that I no longer have any substantial commitments in collaborative territories and have been able to equally focus on my current slate of territories.

	Physical geography
	An overview of climate, topography and landscape of the country. With the exception of Beginner territories, you should always create a sketch map to illustrate & explain your plans. You can add a link to this (hosted on imgBB, Postimages or similar, but not imgur.com)

Landuse/Geography

Mardoumakhstan is a land of varying climates, ranging from the mediterranean/subtropical coast to the cold desert in the north. The country boasts multiple unique geographical features, including an endorheic lake, many distinct mountain chains, and of course the expansive steppe, from which the Mardoumakh people originate. the

	Human geography
	A brief description of the territory demographics, economic development, land occupation, infrastructure and mapping style

Cities

Nomadic settlement is common on the steppes, and to a lesser degree south of the central lake. In the mountains pastoralist transhumance (moving between defined pastures at different times of the year) is common. The longest history of permanent settlements lies on the Shelakh coast, which has a dense network of cities and farmland. Economic development is focused in the south, both around the central lake, in the valleys south of it, and on the coast. Overall, the country is poorer than its neighbours, but obviously there's significant variation. HDI is around 0.7.

Languages

The main language of the territory is Northern Uzbek, aka Mardoumakh. Shelakh, based on Etruscan, is spoken on the coast and in the western ranges. Arasian, a minor romance conlang, is spoken in the north, matching with the Navennese Arasian community on the other side of the border. A yet-to-be-named conlang based on Dalmatian will be spoken by a few minority communities (though I'm willing to change this if there's opposition to it). OGF:Karalkapak (name to be determined) will be spoken in the east. A conlang isolate with romance influences called Mharetic will be spoken in the south, and is intended to be a fairly unique culture with a unique religion and mapping style. Bordering territories will have their languages incorporated near the borders (Navenna, Plevia, Naphon, Suria). All languages use Latin script.

Religions

The main religion of Mardoumakhstan is Tengrism, with varying differences depending on the region and culture, there's also separate shamanism in some places. The Shelakh people were able to keep their polytheistic religion, established by Timboh as Poulafrism. The Mharetic region is the heartland of OGF:Manichaeism, aka Lurachaeism. Iman and Christicism are minority religions across the country - but there are a few particularly notable areas where Christicism is in the majority, generally thanks to Navennese/Plevian influences.

Mapping style will be inspired by diverse areas, such as Uzbekistan and Central Asia in general (though since Mardoumakhstan will have never been under Surian control, communist-era urbanism will not be common), Italy, the Caucasus, the Balkan coast, northern Iran, and so on.

	History & culture
	A brief description of the intended culture and language

There are two major threads of Mardoumakh history - the history of the steppe, and the history of the Shelakh coast.

The Shelakhs were probably one of the earliest major civilizations on the Mediterranean, establishing a network of thalassocratic city-states along the Shelakh coast as early as 1000 BCE. This would continue until their amalgamation into the Romantian Empire, though possibly the southernmost cities were only tributaries. After the Romantian Empire pulled out of the region, the Shelakh states slowly re-asserted dominance, fighting among themselves and establishing a set of nine major kingdoms, but found a new rival in the rising Navennan state. Ultimately, Navenna conquered the Shelakh coast in the twelfth century. The Shelakh states, especially the major cities that are now part of Mardoumakhstan, were able to keep a relative degree of autonomy under the Navennese empire. A few rump states remained in the mountains until they were eventually conquered by the Mardoumakh khanate.

In the steppe, meanwhile, the centuries tell the long story of the Mardoumakh people establishing control over the interior from their homeland on the western steppe. The first Mardoumakh Khanate reached its peak in the eighth century, and engaged in devastating raids on the Shelakh coast and modern-day Navenna, but collapsed after a few decades and had to pull back due to disease and a succession crisis. Over the following centuries, the degree of unity oscillated until the Fourth Khanate conquered the resource-rich Mharete Kingdom in the south in 1239. The newly-declared khaganate saw a period of fairly rapid expansion eastwards over the next century and a half, engaging in multiple conflicts with the Surian Tsardom. Between the fifteenth and seventeenth centuries the khaganate underwent a period of relative stagnation and decline, but nonetheless relative peace, enabling increased trade across the steppe and mountains. After the empire splintered during a succession dispute in the early 1600s, and with Suria pressing on the eastern dominions, the Fifth Mardoumakh khanate, reduced back to approximately the modern borders, decided to invade Navenna, in particular the Shelakh dominions. Navenna had started to entire a period of decline of its own, and after an intense war, the modern borders were basically established on the coast. Various skirmishes would continue until the 19th century, with Navenna notably shrinking the Mardoumakh-held territory around Nouspoor and the khanate taking some mountain valleys.

The country would persist until the modern day, seeing reforms towards a more democratic structure in the late nineteenth century.

Similarly to the Mongol Empire, the Mardoumakh were accepting of native cultures, religions, and language - assuming that those they conquered accepting the sovereignty of the Mardoumakh state, of course. Tengrism is a religion that is able to work syncretically with others. The khanate established governorates in occupied regions (so Shelakhia, Mharetia, and OGF:Karalkapak), with a Mardoumakh elite, but the local government and customs effectively unchanged. In the modern day, this has translated into outlying provinces with a great deal of autonomy, with the federal government (a more democratic incarnation of the traditional Mardoumakh tribal council), retaining greater control of the central interior. I imagine it was a fairly delicate balancing act to manage the country under the rise of nationalism, but a national identity as a multicultural country united by shared history and cultural ties has probably developed by the modern day. The government system will be fleshed out as I do more research into traditional methods of government on the steppes.

File:Noun Project drawing icon 2123401.svg	Past mapping
	To support your request provide links to areas of OGF mapping which showcase your mapping skill. Mapping relevant to the requested theme & geography is especially useful.
	The {{coord}}, {{node}}, {{relation}} or {{scalehelper}} templates can optionally be used to link to the OGF map - they result in nicely formatted links. Or you can paste in a URL.

Orlioni, Arion: https://opengeofiction.net/#map=14/18.4969/51.8752&layers=B

Kleio, Arion: https://opengeofiction.net/#map=17/18.83074/53.67908&layers=B

Gemera, Arion: https://opengeofiction.net/#map=14/18.8028/51.6347&layers=B

Maka: https://opengeofiction.net/#map=11/2.4019/93.0048&layers=B

Points Sagrin, Plevia: https://opengeofiction.net/#map=14/45.8600/57.4891&layers=B

Lakeshore, Teotiyolcan: https://opengeofiction.net/#map=14/-11.0291/14.9334&layers=B

File:Noun Project Signature icon 619326 cc.svg	Username & date
	Sign and date the application by typing four tildes (~~~~) without spaces or "nowiki" tags.

User:Lithium-Ion | [1] (talk) 01:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

File:Noun project 579150 Conversation.svg	Discussion
	Discussion for clarification & decision

If the application is approved I plan to move a lot of my mapping from Arion to one city + island + surroundings on the coast. I'm happy to clear the admin boundaries from the vacated territory - my last wish is to give admin any extra grief! User:Lithium-Ion | [2] (talk) 01:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

It would be nice to see you mapping in the region but I have two comments about this application. First is about OGF islam. It is not imanism but Iman (from Arabic word for faith). Second is more a comment on Uzbek alphabet. It is well known that alphabets used in Central Asian countries change almost as often as countries in OGF and Uzbek alphabet is no exception to the rule. Currently in Uzbek o represents two sounds (one is /o/, second is imported sound from Persian written in IPA as greek letter alpha while a represents /a/). /Alpha/ (present in stan/ston and other words of Persian origin) is non-existent in other Turkic languages but when spoken it sounds more closer to a, than o in these languages (and is transliterated as a or a with chevron in latinization of Persian). This is some thing to consider when writing Uzbek names and translating them to other languages. Other is that the mess with Turkic languages writing system is largely Soviet fault and Uzbek is most heavily experienced by their (intentional or not) mistakes (beside the /a/ and /alpha/ problem Soviets removed i anda ı distinction and as a result they melted into one sound represented by I which killed vowel harmony in Uzbek). Going to conclusion you should probably not feel very tied to current Uzbek writing system. It's artificial and subject of constant change and it should be taken to consideration especially when making translations. Rustem Pasha (talk) 05:38, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment, I appreciate the feedback! I have to confess that language is not my forte so I didn't investigate Uzbek's latinization - I'll be sure to take your information into account and alter Mardoumakh so that the system matches what's spoken and isn't representative of non-existent Surian reforms. I've changed imanism to Iman as well. --User:Lithium-Ion | [3] (talk) 06:00, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

You should probably look at Wikipedian article about Uzbek alphabet. When I decided to include small Uzbek minority in Demirhan Empire's Koşangar Uçbeyliği for example I ignored poor Soviet and Uzbek attempts to write it well and used Common Turkic alphabet (another one which groups /ɑ/ and /a/ as a) instead. This is how it looks on map. It makes sense for Demirhan to go that way as all languages across the country have alphabets based on Turkish alphabet but for Mardoumakhstan it would be perceived as political manifest of good ties with Demirhan. It would potentially be seen as similar to relations between between Azerbaijan and Turkey - Azerbaijan is the only country which entirely followed the guidelines of Common Turkic alphabet but as we know their government has doubts if Azeris exist as a separate nation from Turks. Rustem Pasha (talk) 10:01, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Interesting to see this moving again, a new potential neighbor for Plevia.

If your request gets approved, I will be happy to discuss with you about the border and the reciprocal influence of the two countries. --Izaland Terramorphing Committee (talk) 07:12, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Lithium. This is an interesting application in many ways. Before getting into my concerns and questions about the application itself, I have three technical points about exchanging the territory that I want to be transparent about upfront. I understand you wouldn't be able to do page deletion (I can handle that), but there is still a minor Arion presence on the wiki. If this goes through, it is always best for the person doing the exchange to clear it out. Secondly, and much more importantly, the boundary with Aden… I am unconcerned with Maytam or the splitting of Iberakos Island; leaving a somewhat complex border is fine. But, there are four islands and one tiny exclave on a fifth that will need to be sorted. I wish to see if the border can be essentially "reset" with regards to these five things, since the territory would be empty. Obviously, any change requires agreement with Aad, but I do not want to leave it as complex as it is. Lastly, can you site specifically what you would be taking and if you would be reclaiming anything you left in UL02d would be taken. Thanks. — Alessa _(talk) 12:11, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Of course I'm happy to clear the wiki presence myself, that shouldn't pose an issue. Similarly, I'm happy to revert the exclaves back to their respective territories - if the exchange goes through, I imagine that I could immediately turn over my three island exclaves to Aden (to do with as Aad wishes), and I'd be happy to message him about it in hopes of removing his two minor exclaves. Since his are both empty I don't think there'll be any trouble. As for what mapping I plan on taking, here's a comprehensive list:

• Kleio, a small neighborhood that could easily be incorporated on a coastal city.
• Pasapolias and Orlioni will both be combined, sliced and diced and reworked (for instance, Pasapolias has a bunch of incongruous features that stem from it being built off of a pre-existing skeleton, moving it will allow me to properly delete what remains of that, cut down on some of the excessive infrastructure, and do other sensible things like moving the acropolis to a better spot) and turned into a medium-sized city on the coast, in the current location of Armashlinin.
• The rural villages around Orlioni (but not the inter-village road network) will be re-used on the coast.
• The northern half of Gemera will be moved to a new island off the coast here, assuming you have no objection - this mapping, while I'm happy with it, will also be reworked primarily in the natural aspect. I'd also like to possibly move this island since I quite like the shape, but I'm still undecided.
• Laros would be moved to become an outlying town from a city on the coast from the 18th century, built as a summer retreat by a rich Shelakh noble who wanted to keep in style with the Franquese. The northern section past the park (aka Old Laros) will be deleted entirely.
• These power plants will be moved somewhere in the territory, as will Lapicolli.

There's also some elements that I'd like to move to Plevia and Kalkara (I've discussed moving some things to Kalkara with KAB already, and I'd confirm with Izaland before moving the few items I have to Plevia).

• These towns would be moved to Plevia, along with some little chunks of farmland inland.
• While I'm ambivalent about the old town, at the very least it would be nice to move the cathedral of old Kretra to Kalkara, and I'd love it if somewhere in that country could fit these rural villages and these neighborhoods in Selebes. The sports complex in Seleves will be moved to Mardou. Basically everything that I haven't mentioned above is welcome in Kalkara at the discretion of you and KAB.

This should cover basically everything - I look forward to hearing your feedback on the application. Best, --User:Lithium-Ion | [4] (talk) 23:15, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Wonderful. Thank you so much for the comprehensive list. Let's talk via PM about the Kalkara proposals. I think we can work something out there. Just to let you know, I'm still pretty swamped for a couple more days but will definitely get this by mid-week. More very soon. — Alessa _(talk) 20:01, 30 June 2024 (UTC)