Forum:Global and regional issues/West Uletha - Grand Proposal for Sathria, Ghetoria and the Mesembric Sea region
Hello, everyone! Some of you may have noticed that we are making some changes to West Uletha again. Before making a major, region-impacting change, we wanted to solicit any input on the proposed plan. As you can see on the map below, we are looking at moving a couple of territories, splitting off others, and reworking the coastline. The biggest change would be an expansion of the Mesembric Sea roughly along the lines shown below and the relocation of three territories. Other coastal adjustments are being considered but are not final.
We recognize that such a change is going to look major. One thing we are trying to balance is where we may be able to "reclaim" land instead of just perpetually sinking it into the sea. There has been an expressed desire for more coastal territories in the region, despite there being a couple still available. No doubt the dominance and inactivity of Sathria impacts this a bit. The relocation of Pohenicia is still something that will need to be fully worked out but is a part of this plan. The island portion of the territory is all that would be transferred, bringing its historic "Roman" core and Spanish-language mapping into a more logical area.
Rationale for the changes
On the proposed map, the main focus is the expansion of the Mesembric Sea and the clarification of cultural continua. As we searched the feedback on previous discussions and considered other (even passive) comments people made about the region, we realized that there were consistent issues that came up. Although the list here is wordy and long, we wanted to share our rationale. The proposal is an attempt to balance all of these goals with as little impact on existing territories as possible:
- …to find a cohesive and logically compact area for the "Roman" domain. By moving Romance-speaking and Romance-influenced Hellenic territories northeastward, we can limit what would have been more illogical expansion and holdings by any such "Roman" forerunner. It also means we can limit the "Roman" knowledge of the Liberan area, since the Saint Openge Strait can be reduced to known and intermittently used by merchants rather than heavily used by the empire at large.
- …to provide historical "Roman" access to Kalm and points northwest. With an extended sea, it allows for a coastal littoral area where Germanic and Romance cultures can intersect. This allows a creative space that has been asked about multiple times and provides a historic junction point between cultures that need to have interacted at some point substantially.
- …to strengthen and tighten the Romance-language continuum. The region already suffers from an artificial Romance continuum, but the stretching of it and separation of some related languages is a challenge to the realism. Romance-influenced languages like Eganian are also too far away from the rest of the continuum to easily explain away.
- …to create the opportunity for a true Hellenic area that is proximal to the Romance area while still having access to the sea. The Hellenic 'corridor' that is proposed retains the historical cross-cultural connections to the "Roman" forerunner, Sathria, and the ability to spread by sea in multiple directions. Keeping this corridor does not cut off western Ghetoria or northeastern Tarpehia while also serving as a buffer for major "Roman" influences that don't exist in en masse. Hellenic-influenced areas further east in Uletha are just as easily accessible, if not more accessible.
- …to provide more room for Mazanic influences and other Middle Eastern cultures to be mapped. The restructuring of Ghetoria gives the ability for a wide-range of related cultures to pop up. This includes, but is not limited to, historic Berber influences (substrata of Castellan and Mauretia's cultures), Egyptian (with proximity to Ta Seti to the west), and others.
- …to allow more coastal access for Mazanic-influenced cultures to reach northeastern Tarephia. This has long been a goal to link the Mazanic and Serionic spheres across the two continents.
- …to adjust the presence of legacy territories on the Uthyran Sea to ensure northeast Tarephia can take on a fresh vision without trying to retrofit ancient, longstanding Romance and Hellenic cultures in such a dominating way.
- …to create a more historically-informed "balance of power" for Sathria. Sathria is not going away at this point. While still larger than other "historic powers" in the region (Valonne, Kalm, Plevia, Castellan, Mazan, etc.), the size and shape is more aligned with an Enlightenment doctrine of "balance of powers" that still impacts European borders to this day. Sathrian influence can still be exerted and felt in bordering territories, but it no longer dominates the map in a way that obstructs territory application processes.
- …to limit impact on territories as much as possible. Only Egani, Mauretia, Pohenicia, and Sathria are radically effected by this on a geographic level. Valonne has some indirect effects to its coastline, and other territories on the Mesembric Sea are only tangentially impacted on a geographic level by having a couple newer neighbors with no adjustments needed for anyone else.
- …to try to rework the area while keeping the geography and tectonic background of the area sensible and cohesive. This includes defining continent-wide mountain ranges, as well as adapting existing ones.
Name of the Roman Empire equivalent
In conjunction with the execution of this proposal, we will be reviving the question of the name for the "Roman" forerunner. The goal is to settle on a community-wide vote immediately hereafter. We are also proposing (separately) that UL08i, tucked between the border of Valonne and Plevia, be set aside as the former capital of the empire. We will have more information on that immediately after this discussion, as well. We believe that this issue may be tied to the naming of the empire. We will invite discussion of that on a separate post.
Plans and community input
At this point, the plan is to institute these changes in two weeks. We wanted to open the forum for any feedback, in the event there is a major oversight or objection that we had not considered. We also did not want to force a sudden, major surprise on everyone given that this will make West Uletha look different. If you feel that these changes may affect your mapping or lore in a way that needs to be reconsidered, please don’t hesitate to raise the issue.
Thanks! —Alessa and Bixelkoven
Discussion
I have to admit that my gut reaction to this (particularly the expansion of the Mesembric) was negative, but all the reasons are well-considered and having these historical issues resolved would be very nice, and I think the plan will increase both the coherence, realism and "interest" elements of the continent. In other words, I support the plan wholeheartedly. Out of curiosity because it's not clear in the picture, is Egani being moved? I will say that the expansion of the Mesembric could perhaps be slightly reduced to avoid a sort of "bottleneck" situation, but I don't feel super strongly about this. I'm also glad that we're finally taking action on "Rome" - I know there was a previous discussion about it, which I didn't participate in but did not really vibe with, in particular none of the names proposed looked good to me, so I look forward to an official discussion/vote. I look forward to having Mauretia as a neighbor across the water! --User:Lithium-Ion | [1] (talk) 15:23, 30 June 2025 (UTC)
- As a quick response to the Egani question: It is indeed being moved to the territory labeled as 01d. Apologies for not mentioning that on the map, but you can see the similarity in the territory shape. ⸺ Bixelkoven (talk) (West Uletha Admin) 16:10, 30 June 2025 (UTC)
I'm not involved in the region that much but I must say I like the change. There are, however, some things I have mixed feelings about. First is the mountains. I have really hard time to understand what is supposed to happen between Castellan and Egyt Mountains. Now, before the sea expansion, it can be explained that mountains in Castellan are just a branch of Egyt Mts, but with expanded Mesembric Sea it's much harder to explain with tectonics (not impossible though). Second is random flooding of parts of Uletha near the sea between Tarephia and Uletha. Ulethan coastline there is pretty complicated so partial smoothing is not needed. It should rather be more complicated, just like Greek coastline to look realistic. Also speaking of flooding and reclaiming land I think it would be good idea to create a large island (equal in size to flooded land) between Roantra and Ingerland. It would look nice there and allow for another German (or English but English mappers probably should be directed to Ingrea instead) country. Also I think the problem with Sathria (and Kalm) is inactivity of the two. I would like to see them open for editing one day because relocation of Sathria westward hardly helps with anything. It only moves "problem" westward. That's, however, something which should be done in foreseenable future, not today. Rustem Pasha (talk) 15:44, 30 June 2025 (UTC)
While my first thoughts to this proposal were mixed, I came around to gain its support after taking the time to read this. I think Lithium stole the words right out my mouth when it comes to my thoughts revolving around cultural and linguistic continuity. Most of my questions were answered, and I have full support for this plan. While I do have questions about what cultures could exist in the north (the region containing 08b and 13f), that can be saved for a future forum post. I do agree that we really should have come to a more communally agreed consensus on the OGF analogue of the "Roman Empire." I do recall we did attempt a discussion regarding "Rome", but so few mappers in West Uletha were active on that thread, and there was no official consensus on a name. Looking forward to what comes next! Geoc3ladus (talk) 16:01, 30 June 2025 (UTC)