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Forum:Global and regional issues/West Uletha - Grand Proposal for Sathria, Ghetoria and the Mesembric Sea region

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Forums → Global and regional issues → Global and regional issues/West Uletha - Grand Proposal for Sathria, Ghetoria and the Mesembric Sea region


Hello, everyone! Some of you may have noticed that we are making some changes to West Uletha again. Before making a major, region-impacting change, we wanted to solicit any input on the proposed plan. As you can see on the map below, we are looking at moving a couple of territories, splitting off others, and reworking the coastline. The biggest change would be an expansion of the Mesembric Sea roughly along the lines shown below and the relocation of three territories. Other coastal adjustments are being considered but are not final.

We recognize that such a change is going to look major. One thing we are trying to balance is where we may be able to "reclaim" land instead of just perpetually sinking it into the sea. There has been an expressed desire for more coastal territories in the region, despite there being a couple still available. No doubt the dominance and inactivity of Sathria impacts this a bit. The relocation of Pohenicia is still something that will need to be fully worked out but is a part of this plan. The island portion of the territory is all that would be transferred, bringing its historic "Roman" core and Spanish-language mapping into a more logical area.

Rationale for the changes

On the proposed map, the main focus is the expansion of the Mesembric Sea and the clarification of cultural continua. As we searched the feedback on previous discussions and considered other (even passive) comments people made about the region, we realized that there were consistent issues that came up. Although the list here is wordy and long, we wanted to share our rationale. The proposal is an attempt to balance all of these goals with as little impact on existing territories as possible:

  1. …to find a cohesive and logically compact area for the "Roman" domain. By moving Romance-speaking and Romance-influenced Hellenic territories northeastward, we can limit what would have been more illogical expansion and holdings by any such "Roman" forerunner. It also means we can limit the "Roman" knowledge of the Liberan area, since the Saint Openge Strait can be reduced to known and intermittently used by merchants rather than heavily used by the empire at large.
  2. …to provide historical "Roman" access to Kalm and points northwest. With an extended sea, it allows for a coastal littoral area where Germanic and Romance cultures can intersect. This allows a creative space that has been asked about multiple times and provides a historic junction point between cultures that need to have interacted at some point substantially.
  3. …to strengthen and tighten the Romance-language continuum. The region already suffers from an artificial Romance continuum, but the stretching of it and separation of some related languages is a challenge to the realism. Romance-influenced languages like Eganian are also too far away from the rest of the continuum to easily explain away.
  4. …to create the opportunity for a true Hellenic area that is proximal to the Romance area while still having access to the sea. The Hellenic 'corridor' that is proposed retains the historical cross-cultural connections to the "Roman" forerunner, Sathria, and the ability to spread by sea in multiple directions. Keeping this corridor does not cut off western Ghetoria or northeastern Tarpehia while also serving as a buffer for major "Roman" influences that don't exist in en masse. Hellenic-influenced areas further east in Uletha are just as easily accessible, if not more accessible.
  5. …to provide more room for Mazanic influences and other Middle Eastern cultures to be mapped. The restructuring of Ghetoria gives the ability for a wide-range of related cultures to pop up. This includes, but is not limited to, historic Berber influences (substrata of Castellan and Mauretia's cultures), Egyptian (with proximity to Ta Seti to the west), and others.
  6. …to allow more coastal access for Mazanic-influenced cultures to reach northeastern Tarephia. This has long been a goal to link the Mazanic and Serionic spheres across the two continents.
  7. …to adjust the presence of legacy territories on the Uthyran Sea to ensure northeast Tarephia can take on a fresh vision without trying to retrofit ancient, longstanding Romance and Hellenic cultures in such a dominating way.
  8. …to create a more historically-informed "balance of power" for Sathria. Sathria is not going away at this point. While still larger than other "historic powers" in the region (Valonne, Kalm, Plevia, Castellan, Mazan, etc.), the size and shape is more aligned with an Enlightenment doctrine of "balance of powers" that still impacts European borders to this day. Sathrian influence can still be exerted and felt in bordering territories, but it no longer dominates the map in a way that obstructs territory application processes.
  9. …to limit impact on territories as much as possible. Only Egani, Mauretia, Pohenicia, and Sathria are radically effected by this on a geographic level. Valonne has some indirect effects to its coastline, and other territories on the Mesembric Sea are only tangentially impacted on a geographic level by having a couple newer neighbors with no adjustments needed for anyone else.
  10. …to try to rework the area while keeping the geography and tectonic background of the area sensible and cohesive. This includes defining continent-wide mountain ranges, as well as adapting existing ones.

Name of the Roman Empire equivalent

In conjunction with the execution of this proposal, we will be reviving the question of the name for the "Roman" forerunner. The goal is to settle on a community-wide vote immediately hereafter. We are also proposing (separately) that UL08i, tucked between the border of Valonne and Plevia, be set aside as the former capital of the empire. We will have more information on that immediately after this discussion, as well. We believe that this issue may be tied to the naming of the empire. We will invite discussion of that on a separate post.

Plans and community input

At this point, the plan is to institute these changes in two weeks. We wanted to open the forum for any feedback, in the event there is a major oversight or objection that we had not considered. We also did not want to force a sudden, major surprise on everyone given that this will make West Uletha look different. If you feel that these changes may affect your mapping or lore in a way that needs to be reconsidered, please don’t hesitate to raise the issue.

Thanks! —Alessa and Bixelkoven

Discussion

I have to admit that my gut reaction to this (particularly the expansion of the Mesembric) was negative, but all the reasons are well-considered and having these historical issues resolved would be very nice, and I think the plan will increase both the coherence, realism and "interest" elements of the continent. In other words, I support the plan wholeheartedly. Out of curiosity because it's not clear in the picture, is Egani being moved? I will say that the expansion of the Mesembric could perhaps be slightly reduced to avoid a sort of "bottleneck" situation, but I don't feel super strongly about this. I'm also glad that we're finally taking action on "Rome" - I know there was a previous discussion about it, which I didn't participate in but did not really vibe with, in particular none of the names proposed looked good to me, so I look forward to an official discussion/vote. I look forward to having Mauretia as a neighbor across the water! --User:Lithium-Ion | [1] (talk) 15:23, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

As a quick response to the Egani question: It is indeed being moved to the territory labeled as 01d. Apologies for not mentioning that on the map, but you can see the similarity in the territory shape. ⸺ Bixelkoven (talk) (West Uletha Admin) 16:10, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

I'm not involved in the region that much but I must say I like the change. There are, however, some things I have mixed feelings about. First is the mountains. I have really hard time to understand what is supposed to happen between Castellan and Egyt Mountains. Now, before the sea expansion, it can be explained that mountains in Castellan are just a branch of Egyt Mts, but with expanded Mesembric Sea it's much harder to explain with tectonics (not impossible though). Second is random flooding of parts of Uletha near the sea between Tarephia and Uletha. Ulethan coastline there is pretty complicated so partial smoothing is not needed. It should rather be more complicated, just like Greek coastline to look realistic. Also speaking of flooding and reclaiming land I think it would be good idea to create a large island (equal in size to flooded land) between Roantra and Ingerland. It would look nice there and allow for another German (or English but English mappers probably should be directed to Ingrea instead) country. Also I think the problem with Sathria (and Kalm) is inactivity of the two. I would like to see them open for editing one day because relocation of Sathria westward hardly helps with anything. It only moves "problem" westward. That's, however, something which should be done in foreseenable future, not today. Rustem Pasha (talk) 15:44, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

Regarding the mountains, essentially the Egyt mountains would continue towards Tarephia as a somewhat continuous chain. The mountains in Castellan would be a separate landform. I have spent days and nights trying to make the tectonic background of the entirety of West Uletha and I'll just say that it is impossible and a lost cause at this point. Nevertheless, it's possible to still play around with it, and I believe one of the solutions is to have the Ghetorian-Liborian landmass be a separate tectonic block (not plate, important), similar to the Iberian Plate. Again, impossible to justify anything on OGF regarding tectonics, since we are reverse engineering the world.
As for the complexity of the coastline, although I believe the Ulethan coast is already incredibly complex, I do agree that the smoothening isn't that necessary. That was done do avoid having two identical coastlines after the Mauretia move, but I think you are right in that the coastline can be made more interesting than the proposed one.
When it comes to the island, I think that's too big of a suggestion for now, we already have the entirety of Ingrea, and despite Kalm's current status, there's plenty of territories available for more German-based countries.
Although I somewhat agree that the issue concerning Sathria is just pushed westwards, with this proposal we tried to have Sathria impact the rest of Uletha at a minimal rate, by tucking them away on the western coast 'behind the mountains'. Before, Sathria would block off an entire continent from the rest of Uletha, however now there's open space for lore building and cooperation that wasn't available before. I am not sure how to respond to the opening of Sathria for editing. I hear it's a popular approach for many users, but it is a peculiar territory so it's an idea that needs to be thought out carefully. ⸺ Bixelkoven (talk) (West Uletha Admin) 12:25, 1 July 2025 (UTC)
Adding my comment to what Bixelkoven said… We can absolutely look at changes to northwestern Uletha in the future, if there is a need to take such action. That said, Kalm is an owned territory (not archived) and while not highly active, Joschi has been editing there for some time again. Opening up a privately-owned territory for editing is not something we are considering. Sathria is a much more complex situation. I had a brief exchange with Thilo, and the partitioning you see on the OGF map now was done immediately after that exchange as an intermediate step. Please know that we have been working toward a resolution on this territory as well. It is just going to take some time. — Alessa (talk) 13:11, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

While my first thoughts to this proposal were mixed, I came around to gain its support after taking the time to read this. I think Lithium stole the words right out my mouth when it comes to my thoughts revolving around cultural and linguistic continuity. Most of my questions were answered, and I have full support for this plan. While I do have questions about what cultures could exist in the north (the region containing 08b and 13f), that can be saved for a future forum post. I do agree that we really should have come to a more communally agreed consensus on the OGF analogue of the "Roman Empire." I do recall we did attempt a discussion regarding "Rome", but so few mappers in West Uletha were active on that thread, and there was no official consensus on a name. Looking forward to what comes next! Geoc3ladus (talk) 16:01, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

Although not the main topic of this post, I'll gladly answer. The newly marked territories in the north would be merged simply as a measure of balancing out the amount and sizes of territories, with this introduction of even more territories further south. What cultures could fit there - I wouldn't know, that depends on the users requesting them. My duty is just to try to impose a scope of acceptable cultures in each territory as an attempt to create a coherent continent, the actual culture ultimately depends on the users. ⸺ Bixelkoven (talk) (West Uletha Admin) 12:25, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for the detailed write-up talking about the changes and giving everyone the time to submit feedback, I'll take the opportunity to pitch in my thoughts even though it's not a region of special interest to me as far as mapping goes.

Also, I would like to thank Bixelkoven for providing the background to Sathria and its past in OGF in discussions elsewhere, it might be something worth adding here for those who are not familiar with it. It seems the choice to only slightly reduce the scope of that territory, while allowing essentially a corridor for West Ulethan influences to travel south is an appropriate balance given the circumstances. From my perspective as a newer user, Sathria just looks like a big grey unmapped blob that is blocking other users interested in mapping Uletha. I personally would like to hear from Thilo about their thoughts and input on how the region and continent could evolve in the future to better accommodate cultural coherence. I think that it would be good if such input is at least made public, if not at least to be able to inform how other users decide to spend their time mapping.

Regarding the changes in particular, I have two points of contention I would like to raise, considering that I think an initiative to make regional changes such as this is a good opportunity to address somse of the geographical/climatological incoherencies that exist in the region.

Firstly, concerning the degree of aridity in the Romance area. Obviously the desire with territories that have Earth equivalents in the area is to enable them to have somewhat similar climates and geographies to inform somewhat similar development fo those counties. With this in mind, I don't think it would be a good choice to add significantly to the mountain ranges on the new eastern border of Sathria, I would suggest keeping Sathria and the region west of the expanded Mesembric Sea as more of a gentle plain, maybe even removing the existing orogeny to better justify the precipitation levels in territories further east. In my view, the suggested geography would cause rain shadows that would essentially cut that region off from significant precipitation for most of the year leading to most of the Romance block of territories being significantly more arid than currently mapped or generally desired. On the other hand I belive this could lead to some inconsistency with the northern border of the Arabian territories (maybe something to be left for future changes). I generally think there would be some general value in having more territories with less mountainous geography. I would also like to hear how compatible this would be with the future visions for Sathrian mapping.

Secondly, I personally also bemoan more encroachment of sea into the continent, as mentioned above, the coastline of Uletha as a whole is already incredibly (and impossibly) complex, to accommodate many territores having sea access. I think it would be of value to have more inland territores and encourage mappers to map less densely by generally increasing the size of territories, and it would furthermore help create more realistic geography climates throughout those regions. I must however defer to the Admins and other more experienced users on whether this is something that is particularly feasible.

I hope to see more discussion on the matter. Qhfreddy (talk) 21:25, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Hello, Qhfreddy. Thank you for the thoughtful feedback. To be sure, I actually agree with you about the climate portion of what you raise, which is something that we made sure to look at as much as possible. Climate and geological ramifications of the proposal were just as much at the front of our minds, even if we did not believe we could solve all of it (hence no mention in our rationale above).
Firstly, the opening of the sea, especially along the axis it is as opposed to any other potential option right away should mute the immediate aridity in the region. The size, shape, and orientation has a more far-reaching effect downstream in that the Mesembric can really create its own series of weather patterns as the wind interacts with the temperature gradients between land and sea. This should not cause a problem for interior places of Mardoumakhstan, as we did not want to negatively impact a territory with an established climate. At the same time, it should help southern Valonne and southern Plevia immensely. Secondly, the Egyt Mountains are a problem (in my personal opinion), and we are aware of their impact on the climate. That longer, northwestern range that's basically the divider between Valonne and Kalm (Egyt Mountains)—I would absolutely love to see those mountains adjusted. At the same time, they have been there since 2015 or 2016 at this point and are thoroughly part of the region. Our goal thus far was to limit impact on as many territories as much as possible, so wholesale removal of a longstanding canon mountain range was not talked about much. That said, I myself am actually in favor of removing any part of the mountains that makes the hook shape into the Germanic/Romance littoral area. Scaling that range as a true mountain range back to nearly the Garlis border would be my preference and definitely something I would ask users who request territories in the area to consider. The current setup without the sea extension and reworking the coastline is that these mountains do hook all the way around into western Castellan, so we are already seeing gradual progress. We have been talking behind the scenes about doing more there too.
Thirdly, to consider the "new" mountains in Sathria that are seemingly being added: I would view these less as mountains and more of a construct like the Massif Central or the Vosges in France than anything even remotely Alpine. To say there would be no effect would be incorrect, but the effect should be quite minimal at that latitude. The point of these "mountains" are to have more rugged ridgelines intended to cause enough disruption that there's a bit of a natural, difficult boundary between Sathria and the new neighboring territories. As an aside, we did note that they also provide a potential ramification for a tectonic boundary if Ghetoria/Castellan is viewed as a subcontinent that at one point wrinkled the crust there. Like much of the OGF world, we have best-approximations and recognize that it is not perfect; but we believe it balances our objectives.
To your last point, unfortunately, this has been the trend of OGF since even before I joined nearly a decade ago. While I agree in principal, I do not see it changing any time soon. There are many reasons why we believe this trend is the case, but coastal territories are always in substantially higher demand than interior territories or those with extremes. We fought against that current before for a while for the better part of a couple of years. It went nowhere. To be sure, this also explains part of why the climate on OGF is not perfect. It began back a couple years before, but it really ramped up in 2022: we have been working hard to make as many adjustments as possible to make the climate, geology, topography, and human geography… so that it makes more sense on the planet. There are dozens of legacy territories that were relocated and square kilometers of topography that have been reimagined. At the same time, we are trying to respect existing territories, existing mapping in the long-established canon, and what people have invested in. The world was completely anarchic on these fronts back when I joined, and movement toward cohesion is only going to be incremental. I appreciate the feedback, and I hope this offers a little bit more of a glimpse into what we have been working with. — Alessa (talk) 12:51, 2 July 2025 (UTC)
I have taken your suggestions and the issues you raised and have thought a little about the climate effects of the new area. I feel like if we do something like this (map below no. 2) where we leave the gap open as you suggested, the climate can indeed remain mostly unchanged. The gap can be filled with either mountains of lower elevation, low enough to not affect the climate too much, something like the Sudetes within the Carpathians - while still within the same fold/thrust belt. Another idea was something like the Central Massif in France like Alessa mentioned, a formation independent of the mountain system. It's another possibility, but the Central Massif itself affects the climate of France, so such a formation should again be less dominant in the area.
I've tried to calculate the precipitation of the area given all the effects I could think of, but frankly neither am I capable of making this plan perfect nor do I think it is possible to calculate the ideal situation. I think precipitation is one aspect that's the best way to describe the climate/vegetation of the area and the effects of the new landforms, given the issues you mentioned. I've labeled the currently mapped mountains (in red), mapped mountains that will be moved to a new location (in pink), and newly made mountains to accompany the ones that are being moved (in orange). I've also tried to understand how the effects of the Gulf stream-equivalent would translate on OGF. Lastly I've also labeled the larger rain shadows that would probably form due to mountains, but also the increased precipitation due to the same mountains around them, and also noted with arrows the movement of the precipitation, notably the Gulf stream influence and the effects of the local seas on western coasts. The main guideline I used is this off-site map, alongside countless other resources.
In conclusion/TL;DR: I agree with your observation and the suggestions you and Alessa made. I've tried to picture the climate situation via precipitation because it is a good indicator of it. I feel like the second map with the labeled mountains is a good balance between keeping and adjusting the existing orography and adding new ones. I feel like due to tectonic activity that the two mountain chains should still be connected, but by a rather low-lying terrain of hills/mountains, that would not block any climatic effects. I hope this makes enough sense, so please share your thougths. I am looking forward to any further replies to this matter, as I am keen on seeing more detailed commentary regarding the geographic coherence of West Uletha beyond just 'this isn't realistic'. ⸺ Bixelkoven (talk) (West Uletha Admin) 10:25, 7 July 2025 (UTC)

Hi, just a quick addition from the Lentian camp: branching off from the main mountain chain, there is a minor chain going through Ventria into Lentia, with its foothills extending into western/northern Lentia and Tircambry, that isn't on the map provided by Bixelkoven and Alessa. Concerning the proposal, to me it seems like a good way to "fix" some issues on our continent. Obviously you can't make choices that are perfect for everyone, but I think this will be one of the better ways to create a more cohesive West Uletha. Maybe the straits of Dematisna could be a bit wider, but that's it. Excited to see what will come of this proposal :) -Mantan (talk) 22:39, 5 July 2025 (UTC)

Not all mountain chains are rendered on the map, only the ones affected by these changes, just to be clear. Also, I feel like the strait of Dematisna should stay as it is right now. On the sketch map it just a visual error, I don't intend on changing it, if that's what you are referring to. :) ⸺ Bixelkoven (talk) (West Uletha Admin) 10:25, 7 July 2025 (UTC)
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