Forum:Official collaboratives/St. Lazarus and Thilius

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This is a draft proposal for the OGF Papal States, provisionally named Confederatio Sacra Territorii Lazari Thilique (Holy Confederation of the Lazarian and Thilian Territories, named after in-world Apostles St Lazarus and Thilus. This is drawn-up in consultation with the Plevian mappers and others in the unofficial OGF discord, including Imperator and Rustem Pasha.

Overview

Confederatio Sacra will basically be OGF's analogue to the Papal States. What makes Confederatio Sacra more distinct, however, is that it would be an island nation rather than landlocked in an existing capital (there was a previous effort at an OGF Vatican City, but the mapper had long left). There is admittedly not much originality in recreating the Vatican through mapping just a cathedral, square and dozen church administrative buildings, though it's possible to reintegrate that mapping (or parts of it) into Osianopolis or similar as an exclave of the Confederation.

The Confederation is proposed to be centred on the Plevian island of Furgenia and/or Palmaria (with additional smaller islands to make it a kind of archipelago). The Confederation might still own some exclaves, which are largely church properties, spread across not only Plevia but Castellan and the region. The Confederation only exercises nominal sovereignty over these enclaves as a compromise through some treaties with the respective countries.

For now, this has been considered a subproject of Plevia.

Name

Obviously we don't want to just adopt "Papal" for the OGF Papal States. Confederatio Sacra Territorii Lazari Thilique seems to be a leading name, although other names named after possible OGF Apostles (Marcus, Luca, Lucius, Thomas, Judas, Basilides, Matthias) are being considered. This will be decided formally when the project is launched.

A corresponding proper noun name might be Lazaria et Thilia.

Alternatively these names could be used as island or city names - exempli gratia Portus Lazarenus

Mapping style and geography

Each islet under its direct political control could be dominated by a single monastery, like the Holy Cross Cathedral on Aghtamar Island in Turkey. Or like Mount Athos, with a sacred mountain or volcano, but less hermit and possibly a bit more centralised, maybe with a city with at least 150,000 people like Malta. The Papal Palace on Furgenia will be similar to the papal palace in Avignon (1309-1377) and largely fortified due to past attempts by Mazanic conquerors to take the island. Generally, the islets would be similar to the various islets in the real-world Mediterranean.

While a "theocratic elective monarchy" under the direct rule of the Pope, the Confederation could still function as an independent state handling its own foreign affairs, defence etc etc. As such, unlike the Vatican City, it will still have modern ports, airports and towns and villages of ordinary civilians.

History

The island on which the Confederation is currently centred is not the original Holy See. Like the Papal States, the Confederation once ruled over a series of territories, with sovereignty granted to the Popes by the Romantish Empire (or whichever the OGF Roman Empire is), and the See used to be centred in a Plevian city. However, perhaps due to a civil war in Plevia, the Pope was forced out of that city and fled to Furgenia. As the island was heavily fortified, the Plevians were unable to capture the Pope.

The island itself could be a metropolitan/important centre for a variety of other reasons; perhaps it is the birthplace of "the prophet(s)", perhaps it was an important trade city, perhaps the papacy was moved there, perhaps it was the place where the prophet(s) preached. Nevertheless, with the Pope and the See reorganising on the island, it redeveloped and modernised into the current era, with its independence guaranteed by various nations in the Mediterranean.

The Confederation is likely mapped in Latin, its official language.

Zhenkang (talk) 08:15, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Comments

Hi, mappers! If it is approved, would be OK to move Peritano to this island, wouldnt? -- BMSOUZA (talk) 13:04, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Not really. Bixelkoven, who is one of the admins in charge of West Uletha, admitted that the OGF Papal States should divert, as much as possible without dropping obvious connotations to Pope and Catholicism/Ortholicism, from being Vatican copy. Peritano is directly inspired by Vatican so it would be better not to use it. It may be, however, reused partially or be used as a mapping in other country. It's good mapping of old city after all. Rustem Pasha (talk) 13:20, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Ok, Rustem! I just said it because looks like Peritano and around are available, but I understand the statement. -- BMSOUZA (talk) 13:50, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I will confess that the project is intriguing and could be quite interesting. There are two problems at this point:

• Purple territories are community-owned and cannot be split haphazardly just because someone in the project wants to. It's a new territory from a community area not a private one… make a request the appropriate way! Where was the discussion? Why that location and not multiple others that could have worked? I am aware that Bixelkoven indicated support for the project, but (to my knowledge) he did not state a go-ahead, and we hadn't had a chance to at least touch base as co-admin. We have a process for a reason.
• I can see some potential world-building content above, but the idea of it being a "subproject" of Plevia is ambiguous and actual details are not worked out. There needs to be a larger, brief community discussion about how the project is organised and structured.

Right now, I can see it is already split on the map, renamed on the map, multiple other changes already started unilaterally, and there has been no public community involvement. That's inappropriate. Since I do think the project has some merit, I am not going to revert the changesets at this moment. However, no more edits shall take place until a few things are nominally worked out. This should not take long, but let's get this done first. Further edits will be treated accordingly.

So, let's get into some very specifics that need clarification. (When responding do so below the signature and don't break up the list.)

1. Who will be allowed to participate in this project? This impacts how the process will unfold from here.
   1. If this is a proposed semi-private or invite-only territory, then this needs to be converted to a true territory request. A simple forum will not work in that case.
   2. If this is going to be a fully-open community purple, it will by necessity need to be separate from Plevia. This forum would work for this, but then it needs to remain a visible conversation… here, not elsewhere.
2. Who will oversee this? The project is not going to be under the header of Plevia. It's a completely different idea, and one that can/should succeed on its own. The person who will be overseeing it will require admin approval and should be capable of helping to resolve conflicts that can arise in active purples.
3. How will the project unfold? Is it by selection of areas? Is it by selection of projects? Who will ensure the timeline of events (e.g. when the airport gets mapped).
4. What is the proposed layout of the project from a human-geography standpoint? Where are the cities and of what sizes? Where are the fortifications and monasteries? What about infrastructure? Is there a draft plan that can clarify these things and help guide it going forward?
5. Let's talk about naming. There are some issues here, and we need to resolve them. Who are Lazarus and Thilius? Why those names, and what are they to represent? Why does it say Openge on the map? As a sub-point: We also cannot and should not stake claim to apostolic names. Important fictitious saints? Sure. Let's go for it. Messing with inherent key pieces of religion? Let's just stay away from that.

There are other things that will arise as we talk about. I'm open to considering the merits of this project, but I'm quite annoyed at the unilateral and unapproved changes. Under normal circumstances, all these edits would be reverted and treated as vandalism. I'm going to wait for now, to see if we can right the ship. — Alessa _(talk) 13:58, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi Alessa. Here is my response as the coordinator for Plevia, from which this state would eventually split.

The discussion started on the unofficial discord server, and at least 3 or 4 mappers started exchanging enthusiastic opinions. In the beginning, some landlocked territories were suggested, but then I came up with the idea of a Holy See on an island, and this idea seemed to catch the interest of most. The whole thing escalated over the course of half a day, and a certain amount of consensus seems to have been reached. Probably the enthusiasm of those involved led them to consider the whole thing settled before proposing an official forum on the wiki. For the time being, we will stop editing. (I have not been editing there myself, but I have only given permission to those who want to continue).

Here are my answers to the numbered questions.

1. I see this as a completely open project. Of course it will be separate from Plevia.
2. We need to discuss this.
3. I do not think that I have enough time and energy to be the owner of this project as well, so my role will only be that of ceding this island by removing it from Plevia for the sake of this project, and to map it on the same level as the other participants. If someone wants to take on the task of coordinating the project, I welcome them.
4. This needs to be discussed, I am not able to answer this now. I think a draft map will be prepared soon.
5. Openge was considered at first, but then it seemed to be a knightly order already taken. So we later changed it to Thilus (after Thilo) and Lazarus, another fitting name of Hebrew origin and Latin equivalent.

--Izaland Terramorphing Committee (talk) 14:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

4. There haven't been any definite plans regarding this, but personally I think the antropogeographical layout can mostly remain as is. I've merely changed the harbour entrance slightly to offer more protection which is important given the history.

5. Lazarus is also a reference to reinvigoration of the project. These can be saints if apostolic names is deemed a bridge too far.

--Imperator (talk) 14:53, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello there! As a mapper who participates in the Plevia project, I am quite interested in this idea. However, I wanted to address some of my questions/concerns regarding this project, serving as perspective of the mappers at the contributor level in the Plevia project.

1. Mapping before Discussion: As Alessa stated, I find it strange that this idea was mapped before any formal discussion was made. I do agree, I was concerned that the admin team would consider this as vandalism; none of them (as far as I know) even knew that this proposal was in the works. I have briefly skimmed through the discussion regarding this proposal on the unnofficial Discord server myself, so I may not be as knowledgable about the proposal, but my main concerns currently are:
   1. No formal decision was made on whether we had the green light to begin implementing this proposal. And
   2. Not all the users who participate in the Plevia collab are members of the Discord server, thus not all of the Plevia participants would have a say on whether they want this proposal to be implemented or not.
2. The Choice of Language Rendered on the Map: I noticed that Latin was unofficially chosen for names that would be rendered on the map. I do see this as a viable option, considering that this proposal is based off of the Papal States, whose primary language was/included. However, I am sort of opposed to having Latin as the language which names are rendered. After looking at Vatican City briefly, I saw that names of buildings, plazas, etc. were named in mixed Italian/Latin. My question here is: how will places, buildings, landmarks, etc. be named? Considering that this is being considered a 'subproject' of Plevia, here are some proposals on how the naming schematic could work:
   1. "The Pseudo-Vatican Approach":
      1. Names of places (cities, towns, villages, buildings, etc.) should generally be in Italian.
      2. Names of important places, or places of significance (i.e., Government/Church-affiliated buildings) should be named in Latin, with Italian names being tagged as name:it = * or alt_name = *.
   2. Alternatively, the system could work as:
      1. All names will be in Italian, using name = *, with Latin translations being tagged as name:la = *. (See Key:name:la)
3. Fictious "Apostles": I agree with Alessa's point of possibly referring to a list of fictitious significant individuals, but to refrain from "messing with inherent key pieces of religion." I am fond of using saints names instead.

I'll think of more points to address once more about the project is discussed. Again, I would have waited to publish any changes to the map until admin approval. Regardless, I am interested in this proposal, as it sounds like an interesting idea!

-- Geoc3ladus (talk) 23:33, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Tbh, the main reason for setting up this draft proposal is to discuss and consolidate ideas from the unofficial discord before filing a formal application. And Imperator shouldn't have jumped the gun to just carve out the territory, even with Izaland's approval. Also, the reason why I wrote it as subproject of Plevia" is because Izaland said as such, and so far it involves seceding a few bits of Plevia for this Confederation.

While I drafted the proposal, admittedly I might not end up to be very involved. I like the idea enough to write something for it, but its likely I rather leave it to the Catholics who have a better idea of how to steer the project forward.

Perhaps for the first phase of the Papal States, we keep it to a few islets in the Mediterranean. Further discussions and coordination would be needed to deliberate about potential former territories of the Confederation and their status. Zhenkang (talk) 05:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the language as discussed by Geoc3ladus:

2. Why are you opposed to having Latin as the language in which things are rendered? This should not be seen as a direct equivalent of the papal states linguistically, it concerns a sizeable island off the coast with logically cultural differences compared to the mainland. Given its position as independent island nation it could easily have continued the tradition of using latin eventhough the local populace pronounces words differently as they are written, just like English does.

Imperator (talk) 09:47, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello Imperator! To answer your question, it sort of ties back to the mapping that was made before the forum discussion, but since Rustem requested that not be addressed any further—which I agree, it does interfere with the discussion,— I will not go into any further detail. While I may have some opposition to the Latin bein the primary language, I am not fully opposed to it; I think it could be a really cool idea that can be expanded! The main reasoning I was hesitant about this choice was the lack of historical context to justify Latin as the primary language. While I may not know the exact history of Uletha, I feel it there is some parallel that follows the development of the modern Romance/Romantish languages. From what I understand, given that this is a nation inspired by the Papal States, there existed a period in history where the two main types of Latin: Classical (and Church) Latin and Vulgar Latin, were used. If I understand this correctly, the Church during and after the pre-Renaissance era used Classical Latin when delivering sermon, and it was seen as the "proper language" among people of the time. The peasants commonly spoke their vernacular, which each of them were derived from the Vulgar Latin.

As time passed, Latin slowly began to fade out (possibly as a side effect of the Protestant Reformation and growing criticism of the Catholic Church). The main question I would like to pose in response is: if Latin is to be the/a primary language of the Confederation, would there have been some sort of movement that sparked the resurgence of Latin? I feel that if some history behind Latin as a language is integrated into the history of the Confederation, that could justify the presence of Latin in the Confederation.

One proposal that I had in mind was the proposal that Izaland had suggested: the integration of a pseudo-Sardinian language being present on the island of Furgenia, possible being one of the primary languages alongside Latin. I would love to hear your proposals!

Cheers!
-- Geoc3ladus (talk) 19:03, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello Geoc3ladus,

First of all it is worth mentioning that Latin was also used, until much later in academic circles, for example Newton wrote in Latin and it mostly started disappearing from that due to nationalistic tendencies.

I can think of a few factors that could've helped to maintain Latin as a functional language:

1) The language on the island is highly conservative and didn't go through some of the changes that caused the vulgar latin variations to lose contact with classical latin and eventually renew the writing system. This could occur due to the lower population and less contact with external populations, an example can be Iceland where speakers can easily read the sagas from 1000 years ago. This way it could be possible that the island maintained a variation of Latin much closer to classical latin and didn't feel the need to change the spelling to something more adequate.

2) Education by itself can also recreate a language in which people live completely, a good example is the near complete destruction of dialects and languages in France. The best example is probably Occitan which was spoken by 39% of the French in 1860 and has now virtually disappeared and is spoken by approximately 1% of the population.

3) The maintenance of Latin as the language used in administration, universities, law, might have caused a resurgence in the 19th/20th century due to education.

4) Concious attitude towards the language, historical pride, prestige and purism.

5) Continued literacy, literate people tend to conform the way they speak to the written form.

An example could be this exerpt from 1609:

"Arngrímur argues in Latin that contemporary Icelandic is the ancient tongue of the North, i.e., of Northern Europe, and not simply a vernacular. Only Icelanders use it unspoiled, he claims, while neighboring peoples have corrupted it, and thus it behooves Icelanders to preserve its pristine state. It was here the doctrine of Icelandic purism – perhaps the single most characteristic feature of Icelandic culture today – was first articulated in print (Jensson 2008 : 2)."

It would have to be a combination of such factors to maintain a very old language I think. I think an idea involving Sardo would merit its own larger territory.

Cheers!

Imperator (talk) 22:36, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Coordinator

It seems that people involved into invention of Papal States in OGF agreed to appoint me as a coordinator and I hope my candidacy will be approved by the admin team. I want to keep this forum focused on merits of the project, not on potential rule-breaking which, I believe, came from misunderstanding, not any sort of illwill (and I was not even aware it is happening. Given that I want to apologize for that and ask for other users to refrain from comments about that. It is really counterproductive at this point, especially given that I think we all want this project to succeed.

Going back to merits, I will answer now the questions raised above.

1. I see this project as comopletely open purple territory. Given that it is supposed to be the only one of a kind, it would really be unfair for any user who can provide sufficient quality of mapping from editing there.
2. I Rustem Pasha, was appointed as a coordinator by the ones who participated in creating early ideas for the project. As a relatively long time owner of Demirhan Empire and a person who was involved in creation of Mediterranean Sea and also provided guest mapping for Castellan I am well aware of local matters and lore. I also have relatively good record of my previous work, including participation in collaborative projects so I hope my candidacy will be approved by the admin team and the wider community.
3. Location: I support locating the project on Plevian island chosen by Imperator and Izaland. I believe Papal State must be located somewhere near the core of Romantian Empire and should have access to the sea, which was historically used for relatively fast travel which would allow spread of faith around the region. Additionally it is large enough to create opportunities of mapping a theocratic state without getting bored of the theme. It will not look as a Vatican City ripoff which is a good thing as well. Given that mapping already present on the island can be used as a framework as it creates opportunity both for mapping cities and towns and mountainous monasteries. There is no available plan for these places yet but I will try to prepare it as soon as possible and revail it for a discussion in this forum page.
4. It is not supposed to be large project so allocation of areas to selected users does not seem like plausible idea. I would see the project as following masterplan provided by coordinator and later discussed and improved. When the masterplan (a whole area or just selected parts) will be prepared, users will be allowed to map there. Such masterplan is supposed to show where important human settlements and infrastructure are located with some areas being planned in detail (by this I mean mainly important areas of the capital city). That would mean if someone wants to map airport, they will be allowed to do it more or less from the start in given location.
5. Naming is hard question. We assumed that using fictional apostles was a good idea but it is not something which can not be changed in respect of sensitivity of other users. As ZK already mentioned current name is provisional and may be subject of change. Personally I am now thinking removing the saints names from the country name would be probably the best option.
6. Language I prefer to be used in the country is Latin and this is probably the only thing in the project about which I will stay adamant and will defend it at all costs. I think having Latin as a living language of small country is an interesting project. At the same time I am well aware that languages evolve over time and new words are added. I assume, however, church imposed relatively conservative language policies over the island inhabitants and the language is not much different from standard church Latin. As Imperator mentioned secular folk may however pronounce some words differently. Additionally some words for modern things have to be incorporated to Latin and obvious source for that is Italian.

I hope this answer is complex enough to answer said questions - this is my vision for a territory which I will try to finalize if I will be appointed as a coordinator. Best regards, Rustem Pasha (talk) 10:43, 11 June 2024 (UTC)