Forum:Global and regional issues/Relationship between Gaermanic Languages in West and East Uletha: Difference between revisions
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Thank you for this nice overview! While I am sure some more territories in EU could be added to the list, I think it already illustrates the current situation quite well. As regional admin, I've so far operated with the third interpretation in mind as well, for the same reasons as laid out by Chazeltine. I would also add that this interpretion allows for a wider variance not only in linguistic features, but also culture, history etc. The only unsatisfactory aspect is that there really is no convenient sea route from Kalm to these territories, which would necessitate some historical anomalies to justify. On the other hand, if the UK managed to colonize Australia and New Zealand - literally on the opposite side of earth - why wouldn't Kalm have been able to do the same to those East Ulethan nations :) [[User:Leowezy|Leowezy]] ([[User talk:Leowezy|talk]]) 14:52, 6 May 2023 (UTC) | Thank you for this nice overview! While I am sure some more territories in EU could be added to the list, I think it already illustrates the current situation quite well. As regional admin, I've so far operated with the third interpretation in mind as well, for the same reasons as laid out by Chazeltine. I would also add that this interpretion allows for a wider variance not only in linguistic features, but also culture, history etc. The only unsatisfactory aspect is that there really is no convenient sea route from Kalm to these territories, which would necessitate some historical anomalies to justify. On the other hand, if the UK managed to colonize Australia and New Zealand - literally on the opposite side of earth - why wouldn't Kalm have been able to do the same to those East Ulethan nations :) [[User:Leowezy|Leowezy]] ([[User talk:Leowezy|talk]]) 14:52, 6 May 2023 (UTC) | ||
Good ideas - [[User:Anonymous21|Anonymous21]] ([[User talk:Anonymous21|talk]]) 20:40, 6 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
=== Svennish? === | |||
One of the reasons I brought this up is that the recent Ingerland expansion absorbed what was Scandmark, home to Svennish or New Scandic, which is equivalent to Swedish. At some point, Scandmark was supposedly the homeland of the language, but obviously it doesn't exist anymore. With that gone, the only place I can find is a [https://opengeofiction.net/relation/222811 single state of Ruoguovvás], which is landlocked and fairly small and so I doubt it would be a good candidate for a colonizing power. Other than that, you have Norðurland speaking Icelandic and Nordrige speaking Danish, both of which are related to Swedish but have significant differences as well. In addition, neither of these countries seem to be very powerful on a global stage, and so I think the recent colonialism hypothesis (which implies lots of military strength and economic resources) has some obvious weak points there. | |||
One idea would be to have Kara and Alved areas settled by Norðurlandish or Norric peoples somewhere in the 8th-12th centuries, which would give languages more time to diverge and mix with preexisting languages. - [[User:Anonymous21|Anonymous21]] ([[User talk:Anonymous21|talk]]) 20:40, 6 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 20:40, 6 May 2023
I've been thinking about this for a while, and with the Ingerland collab project getting underway I think it's a good time to talk about this. Anonymous21 (talk) 23:43, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
Context
Gaermanic Languages in West Uletha
As the "Europe" of OGF, there are a lot of Gaermanic (RW Germanic) languages in West Uletha. I've highlighted some of them on this map. Most of these are essentially equivalent to modern, currently existing languages.
| OGF Language | RW Equivalent | RW Language Branch | Mapped In... | Color on Map |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Ingerish | English | West Germanic | Ingerland | Red |
| Kalmish | German | West Germanic | Kalm | Blue |
| Lentian | Dutch | West Germanic | Lentië | Green |
| New Scandic/Svennish | Swedish | North Germanic | ??? | N/A |
| Norlensk | Icelandic | North Germanic | Norðurland | Yellow |
| Norric | Danish? | North Germanic? | Norrick (Nordrige) | Orange |
Loading map...
Gaermanic Languages in East Uletha
Many of the languages in East Uletha have plausibly Gaermanic roots, especially in the areas around the Darcodian Sea. Unlike in West Uletha, many of these are conlangs based on RW Germanic languages. Here are some of the key languages in the area (see index of languages for most of the named languages). Languages connected to English are in yellow, German or Dutch in red, and Nordic languages in blue. Languages without a clear name are listed with the name of the country in parentheses.
| OGF Language | Connection to RW Languages | Mapped In... | Color on Map |
|---|---|---|---|
| Ingerish | English | Neberly, Glaster | Yellow |
| Eshen | Connected to English and German | Eshein | Orange |
| Karska | Connected to Swedish | Kara | Blue |
| Mergan | Connected to German, some Swedish | Mergania | Red |
| Ree | Connected to German and Dutch | Reelant | Red |
| Älvedic | Germanic, potentially connected to German and Nordic languages? | Älved | Purple |
| (Luthesien) | Apparently German | Luthesien | Red |
| (Remsfalen) | Apparently German | Remsfalen | Red |
| (Østermark) | Apparently connected to Swedish and some Danish | Østermark | Blue |
| (Helvetianien) | Apparently connected to German and Dutch | Helvetianien | Red |
| Blönnish Kalmish | A dialect of German | Blönland | Red |
| (Madische Union) | Apparently German | Madische Union | Red |
Loading map...
The Problem
Based off of the distribution of Gaermanic languages in the area, it is clear that the Darcodian Sea area has a heavy Gaermanic influence. What is not clear, however, is how that came to be. Some countries (Madische Union, Luthesien, Remsfalen, Reelant, and Blönland, for example) seem to be essentially Kalmish, which would imply a fairly recent colonization or settling by Kalmish peoples. Other countries (such as Eshein, Mergania, Kara, and Älved, for example) have languages related to but distinct from West Ulethan languages, which would imply that Gaermanic-speaking peoples have been in the area for some time, allowing for the divergence of these East Ulethan languages from their West Ulethan relatives.
Because there seems to be a mix of more postcolonially Gaermanic languages and historically Gaermanic languages. A couple of hypothetical explanations might be:
- Gaermanic languages have been in the area for centuries and have more recently reconnected with Kalmish in some areas
- Gaermanic languages have been in the area for centuries, and some of these Gaermanic-speaking areas were colonized by Kalm and now use Kalmish
- Gaermanic languages came to the area fairly recently through colonization
Each of these has pros and cons, but it might be a good idea to clarify some of this stuff as some of West Uletha (potentially the colonizing or parent countries) is being redesigned, especially with the removal of countries like Scandmark and others.
Discussion
Given that the Kalm is the canonical homeland of the Germanic cultures in OGF, the best interpretation of the East Ulethan territories with Kalmish influences is the third one: "Gaermanic languages came to the area fairly recently through colonization." The diversity of the East Uletha Kalmish languages can be explained much in the same way that we see similar diversity of Germanic and Romance languages in the Americas--these languages are dialects, creoles, or patois of the Kalmish language which arrived with or were created by the Kalmish communities that migrated eastward. Chazeltine (talk) 14:22, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for this nice overview! While I am sure some more territories in EU could be added to the list, I think it already illustrates the current situation quite well. As regional admin, I've so far operated with the third interpretation in mind as well, for the same reasons as laid out by Chazeltine. I would also add that this interpretion allows for a wider variance not only in linguistic features, but also culture, history etc. The only unsatisfactory aspect is that there really is no convenient sea route from Kalm to these territories, which would necessitate some historical anomalies to justify. On the other hand, if the UK managed to colonize Australia and New Zealand - literally on the opposite side of earth - why wouldn't Kalm have been able to do the same to those East Ulethan nations :) Leowezy (talk) 14:52, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
Good ideas - Anonymous21 (talk) 20:40, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
Svennish?
One of the reasons I brought this up is that the recent Ingerland expansion absorbed what was Scandmark, home to Svennish or New Scandic, which is equivalent to Swedish. At some point, Scandmark was supposedly the homeland of the language, but obviously it doesn't exist anymore. With that gone, the only place I can find is a single state of Ruoguovvás, which is landlocked and fairly small and so I doubt it would be a good candidate for a colonizing power. Other than that, you have Norðurland speaking Icelandic and Nordrige speaking Danish, both of which are related to Swedish but have significant differences as well. In addition, neither of these countries seem to be very powerful on a global stage, and so I think the recent colonialism hypothesis (which implies lots of military strength and economic resources) has some obvious weak points there.
One idea would be to have Kara and Alved areas settled by Norðurlandish or Norric peoples somewhere in the 8th-12th centuries, which would give languages more time to diverge and mix with preexisting languages. - Anonymous21 (talk) 20:40, 6 May 2023 (UTC)