Forum:Territory application/UL03l - República Platina

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ForumsTerritory application → Territory application/UL03l - República Platina

Please fill in the information below to make a territory request.
Noun Project Signature icon 619326 cc.svgTerritory ID and proposed name
The Territory ID (from OpenGeofiction:Territories, e.g. AR123a) and proposed name of the country

UL03l - República Platina (Platinan Republic)

Noun Project Map icon 1463108.svgPhysical geography
An overview of climate, topography and landscape of the country. It is advised to also create a sketch, you can add a link to this (hosted on imgur or similar)
Masterplan de mapeo general para la República Platina (UL03l)
  • Climate. The Platinan Republic is characterized for being tropical as a result of its geographical location near the Equator, presenting numerous variations depending on the altitude, temperature, humidity, winds and rainfall. Each climatic region mantains an average temperature throughout the year, only presenting variables determined by precipitation during the rainy season.
  • Topography and landscape. The Platinan Republic is located in the center of the Liberan Island, a region of West Uletha. The most mountainous areas are in the northwest, with minor mountain ranges throughout the territory in the northeast, southwest and the border with UL03t. There is a large valley in the center, with three sizeable lakes covering the landscape. The capital is located in the valley, south of the largest lake.

Please review the masterplan for general mapping if you want further information about our proposal.

  • The star stands for "capital city", the golden dots stand for "largest cities" and red dots for "minor cities".
Invest - The Noun Project.svgHuman geography
A brief description of the territory demographics, economic development, land occupation, infrastructure and mapping style

The Platinan Republic is a multicultural country, with numerous immigrants living in organized communities of the largest cities. Even though the entirety of the Platinan Republic was conquered by Castellán, there are important communities of Francophone natives in the insular region and pre-Castellanese settlers (inspired by Mayans and natives from Panama and Costa Rica, as some nearby countries have native American influence in the naming system and dialect) in the northern regions of both coasts.

Unlike most of Latin American countries, the Platinan Republic is expected to have a developed and high-income economy. The manufacturing sector (heavy industry and materials), mining and oil extraction are the predominant economic activities of the country, with a developing market of financial and technology services. There is a heavy agriculture and fishing industry in the northwestern coast and the insular region, with a significant light industry taking place in the industrial areas of the country.

Most of the map is expected to be filled with grassland and other landuses that can be used if needed, as suggested by the masterplan. The highest mountains in the northeast are expected to have some glaciars (trying to continue the mapping style of the neighbouring country, Alvorán) and the largest island in the south is expected to have an unactive volcano in it. The Platinan Republic is expected to have a more organized city layout style, as it developed differently compared to Latin American nations, with the city center and historic areas having organized grids and senseful curves if needed by the topography, similar to what is seen in Canadian cities like Ottawa, Montréal, Winnipeg and Vancouver.

Some large cities, primarily those who date back to the early colonial period, include a Spanish colonial layout similar to what is seen in Panama (Ciudad de Panamá, Colón, David, Santiago de Veraguas), Costa Rica (San José, Cartago), Mexico City and Santiago de Chile, for example.

Noun Project languages icon 105908 cc.svgHistory & culture
A brief description of the intended culture and language

Latin America has one of the most enriching, diverse and multiethnic cultures in our real world. There are countries who have assimilated their native ancestry (like Mexico, Peru and Bolivia), others who mostly have European ancestry (like Argentina and Uruguay), and others whose cultures and population evolved with constant migrations from numerous countries throughout the world (like Panama). Even though they face numerous economic, political and social issues, their cultures trascended the cultural borders of Latin America and have conquered Northern America, Europe and other regions throughout the world.

We want to honor our Latin American heritage and cultural involvement by developing a new project, inspired by the best of our cultural region. The Platinan Republic was conquered by Castellán, in a timespan somewhat earlier than that of Latin America (as it is in the same continent than the conqueror), evolving culturally and socially throughout centuries of colonial domination. They reached independence by the late 18th century, and developed economically in a significatively higher rate than the RW-region it is inspired on, somehow similar to Eastern Europe and some British colonies. It is currently a developed nation, who attracted numerous immigrants due to its development rate and economic activity, and has a high standard of living; its culture and multiethnic society, with numerous holidays, accomodations and museums to honor its cultural legacy.

Noun Project drawing icon 2123401.svgPast mapping
To support your request provide links to areas of OGF mapping which showcase your mapping skill. Mapping relevant to the requested theme & geography is especially useful
The {{coord}} template can optionally be used to link to the OGF map - it results in a nice formatted link. Or you can paste in a URL.

Past mapping of Mapping Expert:

Past mapping of Imperator:

Noun Project Signature icon 619326 cc.svgUsername & date
Sign and date the application by typing four tildes like this: ~~~~

Mapping Expert (talk) 04:30, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Imperator (talk) 20:01, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Noun project 579150 Conversation.svgDiscussion
Discussion for clarification & decision

  • Thank you for the application. I just got back from having to handle some family matters, so Bixelkoven and I will start discussing as soon as we can connect. I just wanted to let you know that we weren't ignoring the application. Cheers. — Alessa (talk) 14:48, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
    • No problem, hope everything's fine! We'll review the application regularly if you need to discuss any detail about it. Mapping Expert (talk) 20:42, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
  • Hello, Imperator/Mapping Expert, apologies for the wait. The plan overall looks good. Not sure about the city layouts influenced by the Canadian cities you've listed, that type of cities is mostly found in Archanta, but that's not a major issue. I'd replace covering most of the nation with grassland with forests, as it should follow the region's landscape of thick forests. Everything else looks pretty good to me and convincing. I'll still refrain from deciding on the outcome, as I'd like to discuss it further with Alessa. ⸺ Bixelkoven (talk) (West Uletha Admin) 13:42, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
    • Hello! I mentioned some Canadian cities as examples of city layout because I saw them as more natural in terms of following the traditional Spanish layout that is seen in Panama City, Panama (for example); however, I could not provide a RW-example as most Latin American cities evolved irregularly from their city centers, but I'm expecting that our cities will be more organized in terms of city layout. Hope to hear updates from you and admin Alessa! Mapping Expert (talk) 18:01, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
    • Concerning the grassland and/or forest, this is mostly a continuation of what is planned in Alvorán, the area around Toledano is meant to be a sparsely populated Savanna, not a forest area. Imperator (talk) 18:08, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
  • Hello. I finally have a moment to post a reply. Here are some provisional thoughts that I have about the area and the application that need to be discussed.
    1. The application is not for just UL03l, it is for four territories in all. Some of the islands may be annexed in, like UL03m, but the entire archipelago is a nonstarter.
    2. What would you plan to do with the existing mapping in the area?
    3. The application mentions the different cultural structures of Latin America—something far more diverse than could be reflected in a single territory like this. Are you going for an integrated culture, a primarily Ulethan one, a suppressed native culture with extensive underpinning? Also, which cultural influences of Latin America are you going to use most prominently? Many of these probably already exist in southern Tarephia.
    4. Related to the previous one, the timeline history of the place needs to be cleared up. The Canary Islands were already being settled and having missions sent in the first decade or two of the 1300s, and these islands are not on a popular trade routes at the time. The straits at Kalkara are busy from antiquity as a route around southwestern Uletha. UL03 is a known large entity with people. The later this goes, the more costly it is going to be for Castellan to conquer and suppress a culture not too technologically distant from regional neighbors: human cost, cultural toll, materiel and finances, etc. Notwithstanding the Lycene area has quite early colonization, this territory either should have been conquered by no later than 1300–1325 in my mind, unless the Castellanese wrapped around the large island and took it later at huge expense and difficulty. Date of colonization has huge ramifications culturally. Proximity and cultural connection means integration into core Castellan over time; independence in mid-1800s would be a Castellanese civil war. This doesn't even account for language drift or places like nearby Xataera.
    5. I do not like the use of Canadian cities as a model for settlement. The origins and means of settlement are vastly different and from very different time periods. Planned cities can be fun and easy to map, but these types of cities were based on mass platting and land speculation in a post-Enlightenment world. Even the Bastides and some Reconquista cities were either restoring Roman grids or were not rigid in their layout compared to much later anglophone North America. The type implied above isn't common until after the mid-1500s (and even then is rare). This doesn't even factor terrain considerations in Canadian cities.
    6. Lastly, the stated land use and climate seems off. Glaciers may not be appropriate in your mountains, simply because of the necessary height that is needed and how that impacts all areas of the region. Yes, I'm aware of glaciers in tropical and equatorial regions; the mountain heights are my concern. Please consider Costa Rica more as a model. Sure, there could be some agricultural grasslands, but the lack of tropical forests—whether rain forests, cloud forests, or similar—is missing (e.g. La Amistad). Alvoran is scarcely mapped at this point, and I would not base much off this project.
    Alessa (talk) 23:44, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
    • Hello admin Alessa, thank you for reviewing our application. Sure, I'll give you information about the six thoughts you presented above:
      1. The masterplan, our long-term vision for República Platina, includes the entire archipielago to the southwest of UL03l. This application, for now, is only for UL03l and we may be open to annex UL03m, if you're willing to give it to us now. The remaining territories may be subject to future applications once we develop the project.
      2. Regarding the existing mapping: as it is (probably, as I'm not aware of the territory's past) inspired by North American mapping, we may be offering it to users who are willing to "adopt" it for their projects and use some sections if convenient for our plan.
      3. We will be adopting an integrated culture for the República Platina, including the broad aspects of Latin American culture and a deeper connection with the Castellanese main culture (as it is nearer to it than other colonies). We feel that there are numerous similarities between our Latin American countries, so using the common aspects as inspiration would be useful for shaping our integrated culture in Uletha. There's also the possibility of including some native (minoritarian) cultures in remote regions of the country due to the presence of native inspiration in nearby countries.
      4. We'll adopt the community consensus on the historical timeline for the area, as you mentioned, starting from the early 1300s. We need to discuss the independence period further, but I think that would need prior consensus on the colonizer's history between Castellán current mappers.
      5. I'm withdrawing the idea of basing our territory into Canadian cities. We'll be adopting a more historically-appropriate city layout for the territory's historic cities, but the relatively modern capital city in the country's center would be more organized in terms of city layout than other cities.
      6. Related to the landuse and climate thoughts: we'll adopt your ideas concerning the natural layout of the country, including more tropical forests and avoiding glaciers due to the territory's climate and topography. República Platina would probably be similar to Costa Rica and Panama in terms of altitude, so it's unlikely that we'll have mountain ranges or even individual mountains higher than 3800 meters. As we're allowed to map in Alvorán, we'll be editing there to adapt the natural layout so that it can fit better in the general idea discussed here and proposed by you.
      7. If you need further discussion, we'll try to answer it as soon as possible! Mapping Expert (talk) 01:15, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
      • Thank you for the reply. Much of this clears up my thinking even more about what you're trying to do. For the sake of keeping things orderly, I'll reply with the same numbers at first, but we won't have to further down.
        1. Let's stick with UL03l for right now. That's a fair starting point.
        2. With it just being UL03l, you won't have to worry about offering anything up. The lake on the eastern side should be preserved, since it is transnational, but the human infrastructure could be wiped.
        3. This is the biggest remaining question for me, so I'll address that in detail below.
        4. This is fair, and I'll give Martinawa (Castellan coordinator) a heads up to remark on anything here in this application as he sees fit.
        5. I think a purpose-built master-planned capital is fair. My concern was that being the template for the majority of cities. Having the capital be that way means there was a historical capital (whether colonial or even briefly post-independence) that would give you something interesting to map on that issue.
        6. That works for me regarding climate and topography.
      • Regarding the third point above about culture: The description remains vague and, to be blunt, platitudinous. I'm not quite understanding what your aim is. Are you using the many influences of Latin America to create a new culture altogether, or are you trying to showcase a little bit of everything? If the former, I would like to have a clearer idea of what this new quasi-Latin American/quasi-Spanish culture would look like. If your intention is the latter, I respect that but would equally need to know how you plan to gloss over the many different cultural substrates to craft a broad, generic Latin American feel. To be honest, the differences and distinctions between different Latin American countries are not something easily glossed; they are far greater than could fit in a single, small territory. If you are trying to showcase so many elements of Latin American culture in one territory, I would encourage you to look elsewhere. There are well-established countries in Tarephia that have Aztec, Guarani, and other groups as either prominent or important cultures within them. A "generic" thing or pan-cultural showcase would fit better there, and you wouldn't have to make it more Western or Southern European to fit southwestern Uletha. The UL03 area is not supposed to be a straight-up Latin American analogue, as you rightly note due to its immediate proximity to numerous "old world" cultures. This land would have been known, possibly explored and even sparsely colonized even back into antiquity. It should be a more hybrid zone. — Alessa (talk) 15:00, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
        • The idea is not to show all elements of Latin-American culture, the reference is to city building which is pretty similar over most of Latin-American. We cannot map culture so we'd choose a language between Panama and Chiapas as a basis for certain city names as Balam-Utz seems to be using Maya, but that is optional as we could also choose for the region's indigenous names to have mostly disappeared (example State of Mexico vs Querétaro). It is difficult to choose indigenous languages as neighbouring nations have no clear information regarding this. What is clear is Balam-Utz using Maya influence from Yucatan so I would suppose that any well documented language in between Chiapas and Panama would do. A southern form of Maya or even something like Guna or Bribri. Imperator (talk) 17:44, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
        • Regarding "The UL03 area is not supposed to be a straight-up Latin American analogue, as you rightly note due to its immediate proximity to numerous "old world" cultures. This land would have been known, possibly explored and even sparsely colonized even back into antiquity. It should be a more hybrid zone": The issue here is that mapping in Balam-Utz, Pontelabrada, etc., does suggest that it is a Mexican (or Central American analogue), which as you rightly put is not very logical if you look at colonization processes. These ideas are chosen to be a continuation of descriptions to the neighbouring nations: "Inspired by tropical Latin American nations and Hispanic Philippines" and "former Castellanese colony, based on Hispanic America with possible European influence". Imperator (talk) 18:18, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
        • Additionally, we would need to discuss with the Ulethan community any detail regarding pre-Castellanese explorations in UL03l and even some temporary or previous settlements that disappeared throughout time. We're aware of that possiblity, and will work on that as soon as we have a proper timeline of the history of Liberan Island. There's also the possibility of including numerous Ulethan communities (i.e. people from "Franqueterre", Mazan, Egani and even Mauretia) who might have emigrated to the country following the Castellanese conquest, as settlements would have been more sustainable and safer than those probably existing in antiquity. Mapping Expert (talk) 18:08, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
          • I wanted to add on to the conversation with a remark that, although the Mesoamerican thematic is already present in the area through the countries like Balam-Utz, it's worth noting that it started a long time ago when the cultural coherency of the region wasn't that controlled. That thematic wasn't present anywhere else before and it sprung on the Liberan Island and it stayed there for a healthy while. The countries have been present for a long time so it is not our goal to just tell them to leave. Now one can find similar cultures in Tarephia. With that in regard, we're trying to reshape the region a bit. We are imagining much stronger Ulethan influence especially from Castellan, so we'd appreciate if you could implement more elements of European Spanish in your project and overall just steer towards the Ulethan sphere of influence more than what you would find in Tarephia, if that interests you. ⸺ Bixelkoven (talk) (West Uletha Admin) 00:52, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
          • Regarding to what you mentioned Bixelkoven, the indigenous languages as proposed are of the Mayan or of the Macro-Chibchan group. Those are as unrelated to the Uto-Aztecan group as Indo-European to the Sino-Tibetan language group. But yes, it would in fact be a lot easier to merely map in Spanish and that is fine. Given the surroundings we considered it to be more appropriate to add an indigenous language as that's what the countries in the region are doing. I think it should be your goal to clean up areas that are inconsistent and tell them to leave or move, else it would only beget additional layers of inconsistency, but that is perhaps better for a discussion outside this territory application. Perhaps it would also be wise to send a message regarding this to Alvorán mappers as they're set on mapping more mesoamerica.Unsigned comment by Imperator (talk).

Note: I have restored the edit by Imperator that was removed by MappingExpert. Please do not remove or modify the comments of others. If the user in question wishes to alter or delete a post made, it is up to that user to do so. I tweaked the formatting to move it above the administrative templates, indent it, and mark it as unsigned. Either I or Bixelkoven will address all the responses to our posts soon. Thank you. — Alessa (talk) 17:28, 2 February 2024 (UT

  • I am Anakes, the creator of Balam-Utz, and I have learned about the great Republica Platina project from my former colleagues in Alvoran. This was a good first collaboration to create a neighboring territory to Balam-Utz, a territory that I have been creating for almost 10 years. It was the first, along with my partner from Baldoria, to have total consistency, while the rest of the region and Uletha did not. Over the past 10 years, new colleagues in Xochimalta, Pontelabrada, and Jarcon have coexisted very well. I find it disrespectful to the work and hours of dedication on Opengeofiction and other planning platforms to consider us "out of context" and that a proposal like Republica Platina lacks "coherence." We have endured arbitrary changes from being turned into an island to the cession of territory that is not properly aligned, yet we have adapted. On my part, I like the Republica Platina project. They know that they can consult me for anything they need. But I also hope to be able to discuss this GEOGRAPHICAL COHERENCE ISSUE in a larger forum, esteemed Bixelkoven, one that considers all of the creators on Liberan Island. I hope, of course, that this is not in any way a discriminatory intention, especially, and I repeat, with creators of 10 years of experience, to impose a new geopolitical structure where we have had consistency. - Anakes
    • Thank you for your input, Anakes. I actually agree with you, and keeping what you've built in the region is equally important. I fear you might be misunderstanding our intentions here. We know that this region has been through a lot recently, and my hope as the regional admin now is to make every effort to not disrupt any existing territory in the region. At the same time, I am raising the issue that there has to be consideration for other projects in the area. It is a hard balance, and one that I think is achieved by the changes agreed in the Platina project so far. As long as there is a recognition that there is going to be more direct "old world" influence *in this new territory*, that is sufficient. It only takes a small amount from one or two territories as they join the region to help blend it northward. To reiterate, we are not asking for any existing territory to change, relocate, or otherwise move. That suggestion by Imperator is frankly not going to happen. Similarly, we want to reinforce what exists while also helping to make it fit a little better with other projects that depend on Castellanese colonization. I will continue my comments below, but I do hope this clarifies what we are trying to accomplish. — Alessa (talk) 21:55, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
      • Hello, anakes. I feel like you've misinterpreted my message, but Alessa did a good job reiterating what I was meaning to say. I don't want to comment on the changes imposed on your region from before, I was not an administrator at that time, however I will just mention that we are NOT going to force any mapper of the Liberan island to change their visions for the region, if I wasn't clear in the earlier message. ⸺ Bixelkoven (talk) (West Uletha Admin) 22:17, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

  • Hello again, Alessa and Bixelkoven! Following the recent discussion here, I would like to give you a consensus on our thoughts (Imperator's and mine) regarding the cultural and historical issues discussed here:
    • First of, I want to apologize for improperly removing some comments written by my colleague, Imperator. I talked to him through Discord and explained that my only intention is to simplify our discussion process here, as the main priority of this thread must be to discuss the general aspects of our intented vision for UL03l - rather than addresing core issues of our community and continental planning that would be discussed better with the whole community in other instances.
    • We want to make it clear that we're adhering to your vision of making UL03l a Latin American-inspired country with a stronger Ulethan (Castellanese) influence, something we have agreed to here. The original idea of including some Mesoamerican inspiration emerged as there are neighbouring territories who already used it - as we were trying to establish more consistency in the Liberan Island region. We're aware of your intentions for remastering some concepts in the area, and we have no problem adhering to it. As part of this compromise, we will be discussing with our neighbours any possibility of reducing the gap between both concepts in the near future.
      • As such, we're reinforcing the agreement that virtually every element of our mapping will be in Spanish and avoiding most of indigenous mapping as possible. Of course, there will be some elements in foreign languages (i.e. French or Ulethan languages, according to the suggestions presented later here) if needed, but the main concept is to use exclusively that language as much as it is possible. Additionally, we're reinforcing that we may also take inspiration from the southern autonomous communities and provinces of Spain - primarily due to the idea that the Liberan Island was conquered about 200 years prior to the colonization of the Americas, and that these areas are more similar to Latin America than others in Spain.
    • As most cultural aspects of OGF countries are not represented through mapping, we will be expresing the theme indicated before thorugh the mapping of the territory itself (primarily the city layout and other core aspects of the mapping) - always reminding that natural geography would be a key factor in the process of mapping everything. Additionally, once we get the territory, we will discuss numerous aspects of the historical and sociocultural background of the region with the community, in order to develop more consistency and historical accuracy throughout the OGF project.
    • Regarding the non-Castellanese exploration in the area: we have the idea of including some settlements (either abandoned or still settled) from Ulethan cultures who explored or conquered the area prior to the Castellanese colonization era; additionally, as we mentioned in the application itself, there would be significant settlements of culturally-Franquese people near the southwestern archipelago (UL03m, UL03h and UL03n) as it is expected to have that region with French language and culture (according to the OGF territories portal). These ideas will be further discussed with the community as well, in order to have historical accuracy and cultural coherency in our country.
    • Finally, we're eager to hear any thoughts from Martinawa and other members of the Castellán's mapping community regarding the historical background of colonization in the Liberan Island and the entire world - as there are some details that need to be discussed in order to define a consensus that would be consistent for our region and similar communities throughout OGF. Without further information, may you have a happy mapping! Mapping Expert (talk) 22:29, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
A few key points to note and confirm upon the approval of the application.
  • Thank you for agreeing to incorporate a bit more "old-world" influences to help blend the region to points north and also to account for earlier colonization. As I explained above, it is important to connect all the existing projects that would have crossed this important region. That said, you are not obligated to include specific other cultural inputs. For example, Franquese specifically isn't incredibly necessary or important.
  • I messaged Martinawa (Castellan coordinator), and there was nothing to add at this point. Yes, coordinate with him as things progress; there was just no feedback at this point in time.
  • The use of Mayan or Chibchan is great to continue distinguishing the area from what is in Tarephia and well-complements the regional neighbors. Please pick one and use it as you see fit.
  • One important comment to make, however, is in response to some comments about culture above. Culture is an incredibly important to a well-mapped territory. Yes, language and its substrates are important for toponymy. But, it goes beyond language. What a culture prioritizes is highlighted in how it builds cities and interacts with terrain. Social elements of culture determine the placement of buildings, layouts of roads, and more. Economic forces drive culture and vice versa. So, any claims that culture is not being mapped is simply an incorrect assertion. Please do keep this in mind, or you run the risk of the territory looking sterile and lifeless.
Alessa (talk) 04:44, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

When I started mapping Balam Utz, I started with the idea that Castellan had managed to colonize and settle on all the navigable coasts and rivers. Obviously, knowing that other countries could have settled on the coasts competing for settlement, as in the case of the Guianas, Antilles and New England. I concentrated the native settlements in the interior, and they are not larger than towns of more than 25,000 inhabitants, so the urban structure was always more Hispanic, with ideas that native or mestizo neighborhoods could have settled on the periphery of each stage of growth. If it helps, consider on my part that the organization of the island prior to the current nations was "Liberan Castellanense Oriental" and "Liberan Castellanense Occidental", according to the location of the unitary colonization of the coasts without a regional capital, only old colonial trading port cities (as in the case of Brazil, the Guianas or the Antilles). - Anakes

Feather-core-check-square.svg Territory application approved
Approved for UL03l with changes as discussed/agreed in culture, topography, climate, human geography, and more. — Alessa (talk) 04:44, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
Please see my final comments immediately above.