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| <div class="forumheader" style="margin: 1; background-color: #eeeeee; text-align: left; padding: 5px;">'''[[Forum:Index|Forums]] → [[Forum:Global and regional issues|Global and regional issues]] → {{PAGENAME}}'''</div>[[Category:Global and regional issues]]
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| <!-- Write below this line, please. --> | | <div class="forumheader" style="margin: 1; background-color: #eeeeee; text-align: left; padding: 5px;">'''[[Forum:Index|Forums]] → [[Forum:Territory application|Territory application]] → {{PAGENAME}}'''</div> |
| | [[Category:Territory application posts]] |
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| Hello, everyone.
| | <!-- Replace all WRITE HERE items with your application specifics, be sure to preview the page. Preview also displays extra explanation for each section --> |
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| I want to open the discussion about the reuse of placenames and other toponyms on OGF. Many places in the world that were colonized by European powers often had people that reused the names of cities, rivers, mountains, or other cultural elements in the "new world." For example, London, Ontario is on the Thames River, and there are nearly [[wikipedia:List_of_Missouri_places_named_after_non-U.S._places|dozens of places in Missouri that reuse placenames]]. This is a common feature throughout especially North America but elsewhere, too.
| | :''Please fill in the information below to make a territory request.'' |
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| So, what I would like to know is who would be willing to allow placenames and toponyms to be shared to help with the naming of features in the FSA and potentially other places. The proposed guidelines are suggested below to help protect your creative work. Please let me know in the discussion area below what you'd be willing to share with the community. — [[User:Alessa|Alessa]] <sub>([[User talk:Alessa|talk]])</sub> 16:04, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
| | {{Territory application id and name}} |
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| == Proposed guidelines for reusing toponyms ==
| | UL26c - Caragedonia |
| Here are the proposed guidelines for reusing toponyms elsewhere on OGF:
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| * Mappers should add <code>name:etymology=*</code> to the node, way, or relation that marks the reused name. In that way, the original creator is credited. Streets and highways would be exempt, but settlements and geographic features would not be. For example, a node in New Carnaby labeled <code>place=town</code> and <code>name=Lynchester</code> would also add <code>name:etymology=Lynchester, Ingerland</code>. By doing this, we could potentially use Overpass to create a running list on the wiki of these placenames.
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| * Names from any open purple or blue territory are free to use, as they are community territories. Mappers should still credit the etymology.
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| * Unoriginal toponyms that are generic terms (e.g. Springfield or Riverside in English) do not require the etymology, as they are largely generic and easily reusable in a variety of situations.
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| * If a territory is abandoned, its contents may be reused as above until a new owner takes over and makes a determination of its status.
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| == Discussion ==
| | {{territory application physical geography}} |
| Please let me know your thoughts and if you'd be willing to let me and others reuse some of the names from your territory! — [[User:Alessa|Alessa]] <sub>([[User talk:Alessa|talk]])</sub> 16:04, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
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| :I like this idea a lot. I would only say that I would be pleased to see this proposed name:etymology tag's use broadened to include linguistic information. I currently have been using my own, self-invented tag "ldata:etymology" quite extensively in my mapping to show the "meanings" of most of the native names I use. I had set up "ldata:" (= "luciano's data") as a kind of parent tag for anything that was non-standard (i.e. not in OSM). So for example, Ohunkagan's relation includes <code>ldata:etymology=Rakhoda "myth or legend"</code>I would happily convert those to something that the community agreed on as standard. I have also made use of "old world" names extensively in Makaska. Just as a single example, here is the village of New Orlent, named after Orlent in Kalm: https://opengeofiction.net/#map=16/-42.9857/145.5836&layers=B. If understand the proposal correctly, I'd want to add a tag <code>name:etymology=Orlent, Kalm</code>.--[[User:Luciano|Luciano]] ([[User talk:Luciano|talk]]) 18:11, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
| | Caragedonia is a tropical country. Rainy days occur from October to February while summer March untill September. Caragedonia is mostly hilly except mountains on the northern and western part. On the summer it gets really warm reaching temperatures up to 34C (93.2F) while on winters it gets pretty chilly temperatures less than 19C (66.2F) |
| ::Just to add to the above. I'd rather not go in the direction of requiring permission from owners to be able to re-use names. Certainly Rome, New York, didn't get Roman permission before naming, and I think the idea of "borrowing" names without concern for origin is both realistic and within the "fair use" principle that I'd hope applies in OGF. Anyway I have used other mappers' names quite extensively in Makaska, without ever concerning myself about permission. Personally, if I see that another mapper has borrowed any of my names, I feel rather flattered than anything else.--[[User:Luciano|Luciano]] ([[User talk:Luciano|talk]]) 18:18, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
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| :::You are correct for New Orlent. I will also note that since <code>name:etymology=*</code> is official OSM syntax, we could just expand it as needed for our own liking with additional sub-subkeys. Example could be something like <code>name:etymology:language=*</code>. This, of course, doesn't preclude your own "ldata" tag that you have been using. The proposal above is an attempt to standardize things for Overpass and wiki integration and to make it easy for people to use.
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| :::As for the "asking permission," I personally think it's just a good bit of etiquette and thoroughness to attribute the creation when it came from or was inspired by something someone else did. I'm not trying to suggest outright that it would be required, but it is best practice. Hence, why I've just opened it up and asked if people would be willing to let me use their content in this way. I think if people wanted to grant blanket permission, that'd be welcome. I want to reserve the right, however, for people to say 'no' as a courtesy. I understand what you mean about being honored and flattered, but I also don't want to assume that everyone would think that way. — [[User:Alessa|Alessa]] <sub>([[User talk:Alessa|talk]])</sub> 18:22, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
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| ::::Also, to clarify @Luciano, I'm not suggesting you've done anything wrong by borrowing names. I just wanted to know where people stood just in case. — [[User:Alessa|Alessa]] <sub>([[User talk:Alessa|talk]])</sub> 18:26, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
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| :::::I think this is a brilliant idea and I've used the <code>etymology=</code> tag a lot in my mapping, as I find that sort of stuff interesting and gives character to a place/area. I fully support this idea. [[User:Arlo|Arlo]] ([[User talk:Arlo|talk]]) 23:35, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
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| :I sincerely hope that anyone from whose territories I've taken names to use for places in my own doesn't take offense-- and agree with Luciano's point above, that I'd find it nothing but flattering to see names originally from my territory used elsewhere. In fact, I'd hope it's more of an "opt out" than an "opt in". There's two things I want to touch on though:
| | {{territory application human geography}} |
| :* As mentioned above, the <code>name:etymology=*</code> tag is already [https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name:etymology in use on OSM] - though it seems that it's not usually used in this way. It seems to be more focused on the naming of streets than places: there's only ~40 nodes in OSM Europe that have this tag and <code>place=*</code>. Additionally, I worry that (especially looking at Luciano's comment, and my own interpretation, too), people might be inclined to "dilute" this tag with various other, non toponym reuse etymologies. Perhaps for that purpose a tag that directly mentions a node id, such as <code>name:etymology:node=5302030</code> could be used alongside it to unambiguously link to a specific location, and allow more generic etymologies to be entered under <code>name:etymology=*</code>.
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| :* Secondly, for many mappers, I imagine the reuse of toponyms won't be very relevant at all - such as myself, whose territory is a colony itself, and a Franquese one to boot, which would mean there is basically no toponyms to use as of right now. However, that did get me to wonder about the inverse: to have named places within my territory be retro-actively referring to yet-to-be mapped places in "the homeland". I reckon that would be especially interesting for Castellán and (in the future) Franqueterre, since they are the emptiest among the "old world homelands". Given how many Spanish and French colonies there are around the map, it might be a good idea to retroactively name places in these "older" territories after places in the new world.
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| :[[User:Taka|Taka]] ([[User talk:Taka|talk]]) 14:07, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
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| ::Thank you for the feedback, Taka. I personally do not view this proposal as either 'opt in' or 'opt out' but rather a chance for people to state where they stand for those like myself that are more hesitant to reuse or reference work. I do hope it was clear that this isn't an obligatory thing (regarding a statement of opinion about reuse or about how exactly the tag should be used. I'm perfectly content with those that wish to do a more detailed use of subkeys like you propose or just use the baseline tag that OSM has and really doesn't use in the same way. I'm perfectly fine myself with people mixing the use of etymologies in some type of a worldbuilding sense as you noted. I don't necessarily see that as a dilution other than making it less likely we will use overpass or the like to create larger lists as the usage of the tag evolves. — [[User:Alessa|Alessa]] <sub>([[User talk:Alessa|talk]])</sub> 16:22, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
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| :I think it would be good to consider what global connections the reuse of names implies in the context of OGF history. For example, in the real world, immigrants or nativists would name their states, cities, and streets from the places the immigrants came from (e.g., Chinatown, Little Italy, New England, New Orleans, etc.). Sometimes, these reused place names represent economic connections of their founders (e.g., Canton, Ohio) or religious connections (Jerusalem, New York). Other examples suggest connections to explorers (Vancouver, USA and Vancouver, Canada), border towns (Sault Sainte Marie, USA and Sault Sainte Marie, Canada), or war (Trafalgar Square, UK). [[User:Chazeltine|Chazeltine]] ([[User talk:Chazeltine|talk]]) 16:27, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
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| == Permission granted ==
| | About 79% of Caragedonians are white and most of them are mix of Austronesians and Asians. Caragedonia is a really well developed and advance nation most of its population lives in the east. The main industry of this country is farming and fishing making up 64% of the country's GDP. Roads are pretty bendy because of the hills but on big cites its more grid based with few roundabouts / traffic circle here and there. Layout: https://imgur.com/a/9A7qd3I |
| Sign your name here (with the four tildes) if you're willing to let other users name places after things in your mapping. If there are to be any restrictions, please note them. Thank you!
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| #Full permission - names in Arion and Teotiyolcan would probably have had a variety of different romanizations/anglicazations in the past, as is common in the real world as well, so that might be something to keep in mind - or not, it doesn't matter to me (I'll just be flattered if you use them at all!) --[[User:Lithium|Lithium-Ion]] ([[User talk:Lithium|talk]]) 19:27, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
| | {{territory application history and culture}} |
| #Full permission - anything I've mapped.--[[User:Luciano|Luciano]] ([[User talk:Luciano|talk]]) 23:15, 27 March 2023 (UTC) | | |
| #Full permission. We create the world so we should allow the same behaviour as in the real world. [[User:Rustem Pasha|Rustem Pasha]] ([[User talk:Rustem Pasha|talk]]) 23:33, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
| | The first explorers to conquer Caragedonia mostly settled on the north eastern part since they have access to most rivers and coastline. Then a few years the settlers found that there were native people. They had a 4 year long war. Most of Caragedonia are Roman Catholic having at least 1 church every town and 3 in a city. Caragedonia is a really old and ancient nation founded over 492 years ago. |
| #Full permission - anything I've mapped too. [[User:Arlo|Arlo]] ([[User talk:Arlo|talk]]) 23:34, 27 March 2023 (UTC)Arlo
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| #Full permission - anything I've mapped too. [[User:Sweetykid|Sweetykid]] ([[User talk:Sweetykid|talk]]) 09:06, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
| | {{territory application past mapping}} |
| #Full permission, anything I've mapped. Per the conversation above I'm with several of the others- I support having required attribution standards, but really do not support requiring permission for naming in this regard *unless* it comes with really big assumptions about intertwined histories or something that needs to be discussed with the original mapper. --[[User:Ernestpkirby|Ernestpkirby]] ([[User talk:Ernestpkirby|talk]]) 11:42, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
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| #Full permission, please contact if it involves significant historical connections but otherwise it's fine -- [[User:Anonymous21|Anonymous21]] ([[User talk:Anonymous21|talk]]) 20:07, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
| | I have been editing on mostly English territories but here are my main towns: |
| #Full permission - anything I've mapped too. [[User:BMSOUZA|BMSOUZA]] ([[User talk:BMSOUZA|talk]]) 14:52, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
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| #Full permission - Izaland & Plevia. --[[User:Izaland Terramorphing Committee|Izaland Terramorphing Committee]] ([[User talk:Izaland Terramorphing Committee|talk]]) 01:15, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
| | Riverwood, a town where most of its income is from tourism and farming. [https://opengeofiction.net/#map=15/-3.3698/169.7050&layers=B https://opengeofiction.net/#map=15/-3.3698/169.7050] |
| #Full permission - anything I've mapped too. [[User:Antoon|Antoon]] ([[User talk:Antoon|talk]]) 09:23, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
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| #Partial permission - I grant full permission for the three major Bai cities (Xiongjing, Dunghoi and Riqing) but I prefer if you consult me on Bai names to use in your country.--[[User:Zhenkang|Zhenkang]] ([[User talk:Zhenkang|talk]]) 01:07, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
| | Dukidale, a relatively quiet village where most of the population are farmers. https://opengeofiction.net/#map=18/-8.78484/172.41286 |
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| | And lastly, Nadenberg a bustling city where most of its people are IT professionals and its located besides Teston River, a famous tourist spot. https://opengeofiction.net/#map=14/-23.7145/145.9634<nowiki/>{{territory application username and date}} |
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| | [[User:James smith the great|James smith the great]] ([[User talk:James smith the great|talk]]) 03:41, 8 April 2023 (UTC) |
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| | {{territory application discussion}} |
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| | Hello James, thank you for your application. A couple of questions and comments: |
| | *Please clarify below to what degree the towns you showcase are completely or partially your work. For that, just write a text below this comment and sign it by typing an "~" four times at the end of your reply. |
| | *In your application, you refer to real-world places such as Austrialian, Asian etc. While we do use those terms to be able to converse about in-world history etc. more easily, please be aware that on OGF there actually is no such thing as England, the US or China, instead we have Ingerland, the Federal States of Archanta or Cinasia, with different geographies, histories etc. The OGF planet is a kind of alter-earth, with all the same rules as in the real-world applying, but with a different geography and history. Caragedonia's history would have to align with this in-world history. |
| | *More importantly, your example mapping heavily relies on real-world names, such as South Korea, Japan or Phoenix. Please have a thorough look through [[OpenGeofiction:Site_policies]], where among others it says that especially well-known real-world names need to be avoided. |
| | *Please note that according to the [[OpenGeofiction:East_Uletha|East Uletha Concept]], sector UL26 is intended to follow a "South Asian (Indian) and (mostly native) Austronesian" theme. While this can include a low degree of colonial/foreign influence, UL26 is not intended to be a post-colonial English speaking region like the US or Australia in the real world. |
| | *While discussing the points mentioned above, I encourage you to continue expanding on your mapping experience as you have done so far. |
| | Looking forward to your replies, [[User:Leowezy|Leowezy]] ([[User talk:Leowezy|talk]]) 16:22, 9 April 2023 (UTC) |
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| | Thanks for the feedback! I didn't know that I shouldn't prefer to real-world places. I joined OGF only a few months ago, meaning I haven't explored every text on the wiki and forums. I will try my best to redo my work. [[User:James smith the great|James smith the great]] ([[User talk:James smith the great|talk]]) 09:32, 10 April 2023 (UTC) |
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| | <!-- replace this with {{territory application approved|summary of decision and signature|optionally useful information for the user}} or {{territory application closed|summary of decision and signature|optionally useful information for the user}} on closing --> |
| | {{territory application in progress}} |
- Please fill in the information below to make a territory request.
UL26c - Caragedonia
 | Physical geography |
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| An overview of climate, topography and landscape of the country. It is advised to also create a sketch, you can add a link to this (hosted on imgur or similar) |
Caragedonia is a tropical country. Rainy days occur from October to February while summer March untill September. Caragedonia is mostly hilly except mountains on the northern and western part. On the summer it gets really warm reaching temperatures up to 34C (93.2F) while on winters it gets pretty chilly temperatures less than 19C (66.2F)
 | Human geography |
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| A brief description of the territory demographics, economic development, land occupation, infrastructure and mapping style |
About 79% of Caragedonians are white and most of them are mix of Austronesians and Asians. Caragedonia is a really well developed and advance nation most of its population lives in the east. The main industry of this country is farming and fishing making up 64% of the country's GDP. Roads are pretty bendy because of the hills but on big cites its more grid based with few roundabouts / traffic circle here and there. Layout: https://imgur.com/a/9A7qd3I
 | History & culture |
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| A brief description of the intended culture and language |
The first explorers to conquer Caragedonia mostly settled on the north eastern part since they have access to most rivers and coastline. Then a few years the settlers found that there were native people. They had a 4 year long war. Most of Caragedonia are Roman Catholic having at least 1 church every town and 3 in a city. Caragedonia is a really old and ancient nation founded over 492 years ago.
 | Past mapping |
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| To support your request provide links to areas of OGF mapping which showcase your mapping skill. Mapping relevant to the requested theme & geography is especially useful |
| The {{coord}} template can optionally be used to link to the OGF map - it results in a nice formatted link. Or you can paste in a URL. |
I have been editing on mostly English territories but here are my main towns:
Riverwood, a town where most of its income is from tourism and farming. https://opengeofiction.net/#map=15/-3.3698/169.7050
Dukidale, a relatively quiet village where most of the population are farmers. https://opengeofiction.net/#map=18/-8.78484/172.41286
And lastly, Nadenberg a bustling city where most of its people are IT professionals and its located besides Teston River, a famous tourist spot. https://opengeofiction.net/#map=14/-23.7145/145.9634
 | Username & date |
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| Sign and date the application by typing four tildes like this: ~~~~ |
James smith the great (talk) 03:41, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
 | Discussion |
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| Discussion for clarification & decision |
Hello James, thank you for your application. A couple of questions and comments:
- Please clarify below to what degree the towns you showcase are completely or partially your work. For that, just write a text below this comment and sign it by typing an "~" four times at the end of your reply.
- In your application, you refer to real-world places such as Austrialian, Asian etc. While we do use those terms to be able to converse about in-world history etc. more easily, please be aware that on OGF there actually is no such thing as England, the US or China, instead we have Ingerland, the Federal States of Archanta or Cinasia, with different geographies, histories etc. The OGF planet is a kind of alter-earth, with all the same rules as in the real-world applying, but with a different geography and history. Caragedonia's history would have to align with this in-world history.
- More importantly, your example mapping heavily relies on real-world names, such as South Korea, Japan or Phoenix. Please have a thorough look through OpenGeofiction:Site_policies, where among others it says that especially well-known real-world names need to be avoided.
- Please note that according to the East Uletha Concept, sector UL26 is intended to follow a "South Asian (Indian) and (mostly native) Austronesian" theme. While this can include a low degree of colonial/foreign influence, UL26 is not intended to be a post-colonial English speaking region like the US or Australia in the real world.
- While discussing the points mentioned above, I encourage you to continue expanding on your mapping experience as you have done so far.
Looking forward to your replies, Leowezy (talk) 16:22, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback! I didn't know that I shouldn't prefer to real-world places. I joined OGF only a few months ago, meaning I haven't explored every text on the wiki and forums. I will try my best to redo my work. James smith the great (talk) 09:32, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
