Forum:Territory application/UL07e - Mardoumakhstan

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Noun Project Signature icon 619326 cc.svgTerritory ID and proposed name
The Territory ID (from OpenGeofiction:Territories, e.g. AR123a) and proposed name of the country

UL07e - Mardoumakhstan

Noun Project Map icon 1463108.svgPhysical geography
An overview of climate, topography and landscape of the country. It is advised to also create a sketch, you can add a link to this (hosted on imgur or similar)

The physical geography of the place is mostly already laid out, by me, from the account TristanD, which I created in order to fake activity in the newly created Mediterranean region as moderator of West Uletha.

The climate would range between subtropical in the coastal region (Shelaqstan) to cold desert climates in central/central-northern regions.

Invest - The Noun Project.svgHuman geography
A brief description of the territory demographics, economic development, land occupation, infrastructure and mapping style

The territory is rather sparsely populated, with permanent settlements mostly situated around the capital Aqsha'ar in the north, along the eastern border, as well as along the coastlines. Outside of these areas, the territory is mostly inhabited by nomadic Mardoumakh/ other Turquan peoples (see sketch here)

Noun Project languages icon 105908 cc.svgHistory & culture
A brief description of the intended culture and language

  • In ancient times, the coastal areas of Mardoumakhstan has been settled by proto-Shelakh peoples
  • I've imagined before Mardoumakhstan to be the point of origin of Turquan peoples, however I'm not sure what the current consensus is
  • Mardoumakhstan means "land of ice people" in Old Persian. Many toponyms are/ will be based on Old Persian, which denotes ancient Persian (Aryan?) presence throughout what I named in my West Uletha sector map "Turquan Uletha"
  • Nowadays Mardoumakhstan is a multicultural, multilingual state, with the official language overall being Mardoumakh. Regional official languages are Shelaq and Armashlian
  • I imagine Mardoumakh people to be remnants of Turquan tribes which were historically settling the area that is now the southern edges of the Surian Confederation. Their presence is still today visible in Chara Republic (Chara/ former Haroun in particular), Antharia, Navenna, and Mardoumakhstan in particular, through specific defensive and religious buildings, see Chara, Chara Rep. (which I plan to further develop eventually); Borrodin, Antharia or Zsispora, Navenna. What exactly the Turquan religion is I'd want to keep vague on purpose
  • Mardoumakh people are the biggest ethnic group in Mardoumakhstan. Their language Mardoumakh is loosely based on Kazakh, containing elements Romanish and Shelaq, using an adapted version of the North Romanish alphabet as script - This shows the strong ties between the non-Surian independent Mardoumakh state and Antharia (the North Romanish alphabet has replaced Mardoumakh Cyrillic (Syrillangan?) script at some point, which itself replaced the ancient Mardoumakh script once Suria took control over the region)
  • I imagine the history between Mardoumakhstan and Suria to be quite similar to Kazakhstan and Russia, with the twist that Mardoumakhstan was the only way for Suria to access the Mediterranean Sea. During Surian occupations, the nomadic Mardoumakh peoples (as well as other Turquan peoples living in the region) were only partially settled in urban areas, bigger cities such as Aqsha'ar still nowadays being mostly bilingual, both Mardoumakh and Surian. Still to this day about half of the Mardoumakh population lives nomadically, particularly in central Mardoumakhstan
  • The second biggest ethnic group in Mardoumakhstan is the Shelakh peoples, living along the Mardoumakh coastline. Unlike Navennan Shelaq peoples, Mardoumakh Shelaq peoples still officially use the ancient Shelaq alphabet. Shelaq is very very very loosely based on Etruscan glossaries found online (which usually are contradicting each other, even), using the Phoenician script. There are many cultural, but not linguistical, ties between Mardoumakh peoples and Shelaq peoples, however Shelaq peoples tend to be historically less nomadic
  • The third largest ethnic group is the Armashlian peoples, present in the autonomous Armashlian region. Armashlians speak native Armashlian (Aromanian) and Surian. Armashlians arrived in the area in waves of various forced displacement processes within the Surian Confederation, stemming from Iviron and Chara Republic
  • Other ethnic groups include Plevian (or another Romance language present near the Plevian border), possibly other Turquan peoples, a minority of UL07d-ish speakers (as of now Hebrew). See language map here.
Noun Project drawing icon 2123401.svgPast mapping
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Antharia, Mardoumakhstan

Noun Project Signature icon 619326 cc.svgUsername & date
Sign and date the application by typing four tildes like this: ~~~~

Stjur (talk) 23:24, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Noun project 579150 Conversation.svgDiscussion
Discussion for clarification & decision

Hi, Stjur. Thank you for the application. Before Bixelkoven and I can go further, I have a few quick questions to ask. Since this territory is quite large and in a region of high-interest, are you willing to effectively "swap" the inactive TA015 for it? Next, I understand that the Shelaq peoples are the ancient peoples in the region, but we do have the concern of the ancient Romantish to think about (whatever that ultimately looks like). I bring it up, because there would need to be some degree of Romantish presence, even if only in antiquity, connecting the belt from Plevia and Navenna to the Armashlians. I'm not expecting there to be any Romantish culture remaining, but just the presence of ancient cities and historic sites/ruins, etc. Does that make sense? So, are you willing to reconsider this area as a point-of-origination for "Turquese" people? I think having the "Turquese" arriving later than the Romantish presence is important for regional continuity. They could have arrived earlier than the Demirhan or others, similar to different waves of migration into eastern Europe, the Caucasus, Antatolia, etc. This could be used to explain the departure from Kazakh a bit more while allowing a bridge culture between Plevia and points east. It also gives you freedom to blend more with Plevia and Navenna in the west/southwest while still having the Surian influences on a "Turquese" cultural base. Do these modifications sound amenable? Thanks! — Alessa (talk) 20:05, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Hey Alessa, thanks for the reply. I would prefer to keep TA015, as option for me to map in a more North African/ Middle Eastern style.
Regarding Armashlians, I imagine them to be present in east Mardoumakhstan due to displacement, as mentioned above, them being culturally close to Romanish people of Antharia and surroundings - I don't think the ancient Romantian culture would have reached further than just coastal Mardoumakhstan (and maybe areas near the Plevian border). But again, if you have other plans for where Turquans should originate, or if you want ancient Romantish presence throughout the territory, it's ok, just let me know. I can easily adjust the historical timeline. --Stjur (talk) 09:24, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
First Turkic state
When speaking about Turquan origin area, I'm not sure if single modern state claiming it is realistic. Turkic people are nomadic steppe people who used to travel at long distances. Oghuz Turks for example live in China (Salar), Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan and Turkey but also Syria and Iran. Kipchak Turks spread from Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan and Tatarstan to Crimea and Moldova. The only exception to the rule are Kipchaks (Uzbeks, Uyghurs) who were always more settled and live in relatively small area compared to the rest. "Original" Turkic homeland can be seen as first Gokturk Khaganate without parts of Mongolia and China of which significant portion of inhabitants were Mongolian, not Turkic. Quick comparispn between real world map and OGF gives us the impression that historical Turkic homeland should spread from Mardoumakhstan to Ohemia at least. It doesn't mean these countries should remain Turkic to this day but certainly nomadic culture needs a lot of space to develop and closing it in tiny area of single present day country is rather destined to fall. That said, it's possible for Mardoumakhstan to be one of countries which were part of Turkic core and Romantian one at the same time. Realistically, given the terrain shape, that would mean Romantian coast (from where Romantian culture was eventually removed over the years) and Turkic inland because it would be difficult for Romantian culture to develop in dry steppe. Rustem Pasha (talk) 15:49, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
How about this? CaribbeanIslandMapper (talk) 16:58, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
Language map proposal.png
@Rustem Pasha An actual "point of origin" for Turquan people would be hard to define - however it would be a point, at its origin, or at least a few points that came together, and not half of the Asian continent. Regarding the areas Turquans used to settle/ conquer/ migrate in, as mentioned before, possibly the southern part of Suria and the states in what used to be the "Turquan Uletha" sector could be an option, from my perspective. If theres plans for a Turquan origin area in East Uletha it's fine by me, just I do not see why/ how, given nobody has been mapping it (from what I know) in the past years that I've heard this idea being brought up --Stjur (talk) 17:46, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind if I make a comment, too. Italians should absolutely have a presence in the border and coastal regions. Perhaps after achieving independence and/or coming under Surian control the government started repressing Italians/Plevians, like the Polish or Czechoslovak governments did with Germans after 1945? Any right-wing Plevian regime would of course be keen on "regaining" the lands. As for the Turquese people, their urheimat should be similar to that of their real-life equivalent: Southern Siberia and Central Asia. They spread out rapidly through nomadism and together with the Mongols. So central northeastern Uletha is probably where all those ethnicities originate, also adjacent to the Uralic zone which makes for a neat common theme. In the first centuries AD Turquese people rapidly expanded and invaded West Uletha and especially the southern half of Suria and Mardoumakhstan. There would be a Romantish presence over local Celtic, Slavic and Semitic substrates. The Turquese invaders sacked the Roman cities further inland but it probably took them longer to take control of the coast. So a scenario not too dissimilar from Anatolia except that there is no Greece between it and Italy and that there is no Caucasus between it and the Slavic regions. Depending on history, the Jewish country between Mardmoumakhstan and the Demirhan Empire could be a strip that separates the two, leading to some extent of language divergence, but there should be a Demirhan presence and influence nevertheless. Another question is religion. Judging by its location, Mardoumakhstan is most likely a Christian country. Italian Catholic and Russian Orthodox missionaries competed over the Tengri nomads. Maybe a situation similar to Western Ukraine, basically a Greek Catholic Church that is in communion with the Western churches but incorporates elements of the Eastern rite? There must be a Muslim and Jewish influence in the South too, of course. Anyway, these are my 5 cents, I hope I didn't break any rule by making this comment despite not being an admin or member of West Uletha.CaribbeanIslandMapper (talk) 15:11, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

I know I mentioned the Kazakhstan-Russia parallel, but it doesn't mean I'm trying to recreate any Kazakh-Russian conflicts in my mapping - I'm rather uninformed on the complexity and nuance of the conflict and drew the parallel in a rather superficial manner. Instead I'm trying to find ways to combine cultural/ urban mapping elements which can be found in Suria with cultural/ urban mapping elements from the native Mardoumakh culture (which would be quite different from Kazakh culture). I also don't want to recreate the entire real world's history in this project, quite contrary, I want to create a cultural landscape in Mardoumakhstan which can not be found in the real world. You don't mention why Plevians should have a presence in the coastal regions? Plevia =/= Italy, an ancient Romantian entity would probably not be centered around the current Plevian territory. There is no such thing as a Jewish territory next to Mardoumakhstan, the neighboring territory is solely Hebrew-speaking, there is no Orthodox vs Catholic conflict in OGF, there is no OGF equivalent to Orthodoxy, at least from what I know. I keep religion defined rather vaguely, in particular in this project (as mentioned in the application). While real-life-inspired religious places certainly are interesting places to map, roleplaying conflicts between real-life religions seems a bit insensitive and far from the point of OGF to me --Stjur (talk) 17:46, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm going to bring this back on track here, since my thoughts on the matter are quite simple. I understand what you're saying about the Armashlians being potentially displaced. That's fine. I'm trying to consider how big a Romantish expansion might have gotten. It seems that the Jo'arguy province would have likely fallen under Romantish control at some point for some extended period of time. How far beyond that or how long of the control is really up to you. It could maybe even be like it was in northern Morocco or in Tunisia: the limits of control were murky with spotty outposts for only a couple centuries well into generally indefensible areas. Basically, I'm trying to keep the potential for the empire reaching the middle of the Naphon border at some point. Next, I do not really care where the Turquese come from originally, and I'm not going to get into that quagmire here. My only thought was that I don't think this territory should be the point of origin for all of them. It seems that the Mardoumakh peoples supplanting/intermingling with either Romantish or some other group early on makes sense. The reason I mention it is your appeal to a diverse society. Having a couple different strata of peoples in various regions can create the flavor you are looking for. It also keeps continuity with some degree with the historical Shelaq, Romantish, etc. in neighboring territories. I hope that all makes sense. Please let me know if this is agreeable.

Regarding TA015, I'll make sure the regional admin can respond to this point accordingly on this; I do think an "exchange" of sorts might be prudent given the size of territory you are taking on and the limited involvement in Tarephia. — Alessa (talk) 03:32, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

That all sounds agreeable, however giving up TA015 in exchange is a dealbreaker. I voluntarily gave up enough territories recently, theres a reason to why I wanted to keep that one specifically. Thanks --Stjur (talk) 10:31, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
Thank you. To be clear, I'm not making an exchange a contingency of acquiring the territory. I am simply noting that you are asking for quite a notable territory in size, and I want to ensure that your activity level will match what you're taking on. As I always do, I'm going to double-check with Bixelkoven that we're in agreement. Otherwise, there is nothing else from me. — Alessa (talk) 13:40, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
Feather-core-check-square.svg Territory application approved
Approved with changes as discussed. — Alessa (talk) 23:12, 18 November 2023 (UTC)