Forum:Valonne/Nemans - Infrastructure

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Transportation

Roads

This is an issue/suggestion about a small section of Nemans, but I would like to discuss the following: just southwest of the city centre of Nemans, the Avenue des Colonies can be found. It goes on for about 1km, when it becomes the Avenue d'Ardence, which ends at the Place d'Ambroisie. I think it would look better if Avenue des Colonies continued until Place d'Ambroisie, with several rues and avenues that carry the names of former colonies branching off from it. Place d'Ambroisie could get a new name (like Place d'Olers, as it's at the start of the road to Olers), and a new Avenue d'Ambroisie could come closer to the city centre. I think this would give that section of Nemans a more cohesive feeling. Again, this is a small detail of Nemans, but I think it would add something to the cohesiveness of Nemans. Mantan (talk) 20:09, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Sure, you can rename the whole stretch Avenue des Colonies. You can also blank the Place d'Ambroisie name and have one Avenue d'Ardence and one Avenue d'Ambroisie perpendicular to Avenue des Colonies, more or less where Métro stations "Station" and "Ardence" are found. --Aiki (talk) 04:37, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Railways

Trains

West Station

Nemans is endowed with 3 main historical railway terminals:

1. Gare du Midi - South Station
2. Gare du Levant - Orient/Levant Station
3. Gare du Nord - North Station

Additionally, two lesser stations exist, mainly for suburban services:

1. Embarcadère Saint-Vincent - A former small mid-19^th century station designed to enable the king to travel from the City's château to his domain along the lake and now providing "limited" services to East and NE suburbs.
2. Sainte-Léonie - Across the Yse River in Delautre, serving North and NW suburbs.
3. Potentially a 3^rd small terminus station for western destinations, but likely now destroyed.

Passing station proposal - Gare du Ponant Complex

Due to the lack of a larger station serving western destinations in Valonne and, international destinations such as cities in Kalm, the government decided sometimes in 1960s, to build a large complex combining a train station, a bus station, offices and a shopping centre. The Gare du Ponant (or West Station) was build in the late 1960s/early 1970s, likely in a mixture of brutalist and international styles favouring slabs to divide each function, on the location of a good station, warehouses and working class neighbourhood. The whole area was bulldozed and Nemans railway bypass tracks buried under a concrete slab. In layers, one would find:

1. The Premier Périphérique, access to A01 motorway, branches and branches of underground interchange
2. Railways tracks and Gare du Ponant plateforme, probably the bus station as well
3. Local destination roads/street, car-access to the station + parking lots
4. Station hall, shopping centre, pedestrian concrete slabs with bridges jumping from one slab to its neighbour
5. Office buildings and potentially some residential one.

Here are the questions I have so far:

1. Does the overall plan make sense?
2. If so:
   1. How many tracks should be considered for such a passing station: 6, 8, 10 or else?
   2. Was the project completed with a reshaping of the neighbour or was it just limited to the station?
   3. This kind of shopping centre experienced, in Western Europe, some kind of a slump in the 1980s and 1990s. Should we considered a successful later facelift (e.g. parks on the slab) to be featured on the map?
   4. Should we consider a high-end, Barbican-typed of residential buildings or gloomier type like Créteil or some areas of Paris' La Défense quarter with concrete bars and towers of public housing?
      --Aiki (talk) 09:43, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

It could be an area that has gotten recent urban renewal, it's a relatively important location to be left rotting for long. Probably not for a central business district area, but for some kind of dense walkable housing quarter with cultural and art facilities alike many urban renewal projects in Europe.
Likewise I believe that not the entire area should be renewed but some older structures could be mapped as ready for demolition. ⸺ Bixelkoven (talk) (West Uletha Admin) 12:29, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

It does make sense. A few blocks destroyed to make room for the core of a project that was never completed: the station was built with some overground buildings built on the central slabs, but large chunks of the original neighbourhood were left untouched. The whole thing being renovated in the last 15-20 years. There are some smaller examples I can think of in Paris: Olympiades, Paris "Chinatown" that once had a goods railway station under the slab, and higher-end Beaugrenelle. In terms of layer:, that means we may have something like:

• -4 and below: A01 motorway and its accesses/interchange
• -3 Railway tracks, Bus Station
• -1/-2 Parking lots access to bus station plateforms
• 0 Local destination roads/street: car access to the stations and parking lots
• 1 Station hall, shopping centre & pedestrian slab(s)
• 2 and above: any building built on the slab(s).
  --Aiki (talk) 03:35, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Rapid transit

General Plan

Nemans metro map proposal, by user:Sergjack

I propose a system like this, which is similar to irl:Paris but not identical, so as to keep things unique.

• Bright red is the early 20th century elevated light metro with small trains and close station spacings.
• Purple is the "tramway ancien" that was also built around the turn of the 20th century but was, unlike in Paris, never demolished.
• And, finally, Dark red would wither be a modern heavy metro or RER built after the 70s (maybe it could even be a bit quirky and run on rubber tyres?).

Of course, this proposal is only a framework and as such is not meant to be taken completely as-is and any suggestions and modifications are fully welcome.
Sergjack (talk) 00:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Sergejack. The city project and its public transportation system are quite at their infancy but this provides a good framework when we reach that point: some features of the city are already there, but it's a bit early in its development to know where most people live and where the work/shop to draw all the lines. For the tram, I'd say, this would need to be discussed with other collaborators as it's a "major" distinction with IRL Paris. --Aiki (talk) 05:37, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi All,
Does anyone some input before Sergejack starts implementing bits of the central sections of the above proposal?

• Metro: from my understanding, the plan departs largely from IRL Paris with most of existing underground stretches to be moved on elevated viaducts. IRL Paris, historic metro lines are rarely above ground. Main examples are lines 2 and 6 that run long distances above the median strip of large boulevards that surround Paris's core, or crossing of the Seine River: Pont de Bercy, Viaduc d'Austerlitz and Pont de Bir-Hakeim. So far, the already-mapped sections seem to follow this pattern.
  I can't find the exact reference (incl. drawings) at the moment, but some projects existed during the second half of the 19th century for elevated train lines (then steam-powered, not unlike contemporary El in New York) in Paris. Those projects were opposed on the ground that the viaducts would disfigure Paris avenues. As it may seem unlikely Nemans went the complete opposite way, what is your opinion on the matter?
• Tram: being far from a specialist to consider how the tram system should have looked liked if they were not removed in the 1940s-1950s as in most of French cities, I do not have solid opinion on the matter . For Paris area, you may have a look at this gif, dark green being electrified trams. Alas, the article exists only in French and German for those who can read either. Any enlightened opinion/advise from the OGF larger community is welcome.
  --Aiki (talk) 06:56, 3 November 2024 (UTC) I think Sergjack's proposal is great; it isn't exactly Paris but it would still be fitting for the large metropolis Nemans will be. The mix of metro, heavy metro and tramways would be very nice. --Mantan (talk) 12:58, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
  • I think it is bit too early for mapping out whole metro and tram system as of now - it could be done later when the road layout will be more definitive, either in a spontaneous or a planned way. I believe that public transit is easier to lay out when main road and rail corridors, as well as points of interests/landmarks are decided. In OGFC Discord server, I recommended less trams and more metro in Sergjack's plan, and some people seconded my opinion (I encourage them to share their insights here, too). My idea was that trams exist nowadays only on the right bank of Yse (west side, e.g. Rens and Saint-Lambert area), in a manner of older, historic trams like in Lisbon, and geographically somewhat limited like in (East) Berlin, while the rest of the city (central and eastern parts) are served by metro only, in Paris style. Some people liked that idea too, maybe I can map out a vague proposal later to explore the idea further. Ante44 (talk) 13:36, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Nemans elevated metro by Sergjack

I feel Ante44 makes sense. Regarding the large elevated network in the centre, I keep being rather sceptical, scepticism reinforced by the rendering along Avenue de Valonne. I really doubt a French-like country, with its emphasis on culture preservation, would have accepted the perspective or the view of historic buildings along the avenue to be challenged that way. That being said, metro running on viaducts or at level outside the centre (~roughly from the boulevards circling at Gares du Midi/Levant level) would have encountered less imaginary opposition.--Aiki (talk) 11:22, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Extent of tunneled network

Proposed extent of tunneled sections.

Here is a map that was agreed to on the discord server regarding the metro sections that would be tunneled. Unless objections are made here I will move forward with implementing this proposal.
Sergjack (talk) 22:16, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, Sergjack. It looks good to me and in line with a rather slow, organic growth that enables some leeway for future adaptation. I've just widened Boulevard des Halles so that the viaduct runs over a median strip, as in Paris, and not over the actual street as it does in Downtown Chicago. I've also renamed Rue des Cerises/Cerises station to Rue des Maraîchers/Maraîchers (market gardeners) as I felt it was more in line with the nearby covered market, former Halles and, fruit-named streets sound a bit more recent (from the late 1960s) suburban developments with culs-de-sac, looping streets and middle/middle-upper class villas.
--Aiki (talk) 06:03, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

RER-like network

Here's a very brief draft for the central tunnel section of a potential RER-like network. The East and South portals are located at railway junctions/yard while the west and north exits have not be thoroughly considered. These 3 lines converged to a central station under the Place d'Armes with 2 of them meeting again next to the Gare du Ponant/Western business centre. Any thoughts on the draft? --Aiki (talk) 11:22, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Waterways

River Port

I think Nemans should have two major river ports. The main one on the lake and a smaller but equally important river port on the Yse, which would allow ships from the south (Rivador, the Mesembric Sea) to unload their cargo earlier without the need for them to go through the city, clogging the river with barge and ship traffic. Reminder that this river is an important route between the Mesembric and the Great Rift area. ⸺ Bixelkoven (talk) (West Uletha Admin) 12:29, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Likewise, I think most of the older bridges in Nemans should be drawbridges of some sorts, to allow ships to pass. ⸺ Bixelkoven (talk) (West Uletha Admin) 12:29, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I suppose boats on the Yse will be barges, a type that, I suppose, does not seem well-suited for the Lake Glois (which is large, but not sea-like-large) - I may be completely wrong on the matter. I feel unloading/loading twice may be a bit cumbersome. Though I'm not oppose to having 2 ports, maybe one of the would be dedicated to the usual transshipment for goods passing through Nemans area (likely the one close to the lake), while goods stopping at Nemans will be unloaded at the first port on their way: upstream for the north and downstream for the south.

For drawbridges, it all depends on how tall those ships are expected to be. I can think of the French-made Trinity Bridge in St-Petersburg, but in that case, seaworthy ships are concerned. --Aiki (talk) 03:54, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

If clogging of the river in Nemans was a problem at a certain period it is likely a canal was build to bypass the city completely in the 19th or early 20th century. This would also in the city having two ports. There's already the Canal d'Auriève, but that might still be too close to the city.

Imperator (talk) 19:40, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Main Public Building

Government

National

1. Parliament Building
2. Interior Ministry
3. Education Ministry
4. Nemans Courthouse

Local

1. Nemans Townhall
   1. Sablon neighbourhood townhall

Embassies

Embassies may need to be moved from their related "ethnic" neighbourhoods to fancy/fancier ones where diplomatic offices are usually located

Country	Name	Diplomatic	Representing in
Antharia	Ambassade d'Antharie	embassy	Valony
Gobrassania	Ambassade de Gobrassanie	embassy	Valony
Lentia	Ambassade de Lintique	embassy	Valony
Brasonia	Ambassade de Brasonie	embassy	Valony
Floresecenta	Ambassade de Florescente	embassy	Valony
Novakia	Ambassade de Novaquie	embassy	Valony
Federal States of Archanta	Ambassade des États Fédéraux d'Archante	embassy	Valony
Ingrea	Résidence de l'Ambassadeur d'Ingrée	embassy	Valony
Federal States of Archanta	Résidence de l'ambassadeur des États Fédéraux d'Archante	embassy	Valony

Religious

Ortholique

Roman Catholic

1. Cathedral of Nemans
   1. Archbishopric of Nemans
2. Église Sainte-Anne
3. Église Saint-Théodore de Chéron
4. Église Saint-Louis-en-Ville
5. Chapelle royale
6. Église Saint-Philippe-du-Petit-Ruisseau
7. Église Saint-Michel de Kirchembourg

Culture

Museums

1. National Museum
2. National Museum of Archaeology
   1. Forum de Némétomagos
   2. Nemetomagos Arena

Theatres

1. Grand Palais d'Ulèthe Likely houses concert hall, potentially an opera house and a theatre as 3 halls are mapped