Talk:OGF:"Lost" countries

From OpenGeofiction Encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Can we also show what country nowadays occupies these 'Lost' Countries?--Happy mapping and God bless, Zhenkang (talk) 10:43, 1 December 2017 (CET)

Making a Reserved Country Template

Perhaps someone with more knowledge than me at making templates would be kind enough to make a 'Reserved Country' template that could be used to differentiate them from the 'lost' countries? Ruadh (talk) 22:43, 21 January 2018 (CET)

You could do it like this: Reserved.png Mazan ... or like this Reserved country.png Mazan--Udilugbuldigu (talk) 01:27, 22 January 2018 (CET)
What does "reserved" mean? Maybe the territory is "reserved", but the country itself is still "lost" in the wiki? So differentiating between them does not make any sense, or?--Mstr (talk) 01:41, 22 January 2018 (CET)
Reserved is different from lost - although the original country is lost, the theme is kept. Do we need to differentiate? I don't know. Might be simpler just call them all lost.--Udilugbuldigu (talk) 01:52, 22 January 2018 (CET)
Is there any difference how to treat them? I think only the admins can decide what to do with a reserved area and how to continue with a lost country. In the case it should keep its "theme", I see no problem to continue from the "lost country" page.--Mstr (talk) 02:07, 22 January 2018 (CET)
For Mazan and Suria, I think because they have a strong influence in OGF in the past, and thus they are reserved. I think in the future these countries' theme will be kept, but the admins are still ponding over on what to do with them, which is why they are still unopened. The names of these countries will definitely be changed. You can see the discussion of UL137 on the talk page--Happy mapping and God bless, ZK (talk) 02:23, 22 January 2018 (CET)
I assume that the content in the country pages may influence the future of the country when its released. But in terms of 'theme' not future page content, since that could become complicated down the line for example if the user came back to OGF. On balance, lost would be a better description for the wiki page than 'reserved'. I'd be inclined just to make all these templates 'lost'. However, the case may arise in future when a country is genuinely 'reserved' - maybe awaiting a new owner, but with the intention of keeping the same wiki etc. But that would probably have to be decided before it came reserved--Udilugbuldigu (talk) 02:43, 22 January 2018 (CET)
Strong influence? Made my day! Since Mazan has the largest cities and won several world cups? No - seriously - can anyone tell me what exactly this influence is? And what does this mean for its treatment?--Mstr (talk) 02:35, 22 January 2018 (CET)
For everyone's info, the only reason I put this 'reserved' category in here was because last week while marking Surian references for deletion I deleted the Surian 'language' from a list and immediately had my edit reversed for what that user described as 'obvious reasons'. So.. I'm guessing it had to be kept because they were precious about the word Surian. Maybe there's a good case for this, maybe not, I'd think not. If the reserved territories ever become unreserved it'll be up to their new owner/owners what's done with them, what they're called, what their language is called etc etc. So they are essentially lost and the info about them, if it's to be kept at all, shouldn't be part of the 'real' pages. Ruadh (talk) 08:33, 22 January 2018 (CET)
I think there's a difference between deleting information about a small poorly mapped territory somewhere in Archanta and a country the size and importance of Suria. For example Suria definitely did influence its neighboring countries in terms of culture and historical background. It would be hard to delete all of that. Since Suria is a possible future collaborative territory, owners of these countries (like me) will definitely try to preserve the attributes important to them. Surian probably played a major role in the development of 'Syrillangan' (heh) languages on here, so I'm guessing the user who reverted your edit, Ruadh, wasn't thrilled about you deleting the page. --Eklas (talk) 10:53, 22 January 2018 (CET)
@ Eklas, I didn't delete a page, I deleted an entry referencing Surian on a languages list that purports to be canon. Since Suria is lost/reserved, Surian can't exist either and calling that language Surian is misleading, like all the info on lost countries is. But some users are using lost and reserved territory wiki info, against the official advise, to develop their own histories. There's also a difference between the actual mapping and the info in the wiki. If or when the territory becomes active again in whatever form, that's when the users involved can make decisions about how to wiki it. Until then if a proto-Syrillangan is needed then why not just make up a new name and say it probably came from somewhere in Central Uletha? Ruadh (talk) 11:22, 22 January 2018 (CET)
@Ruadh: I've checked that language page. In this specific case I'd propose to leave the language as a synonym for RW Russian, but delete all references to the country. The "owner" of the page should do whatever he wants to do. I see no reason for the OGFworld to use this name in the future.
@EklasI definitely have a different opinion! Maybe you like to preserve it since your country is close to it and might be influenced. But if this becomes a reason, we cannot delete any country in the future! You say "small poorly mapped territory somewhere in Archanta"... think about what you've said! Suria is not small, but I say it has never existed! It's a fake! In my eyes, it is worse than poorly mapped! So why should we spend time to discuss or even further develop an idea of someone who left the community? --Mstr (talk) 11:28, 22 January 2018 (CET)
Alright, I didn't know, I thought you deleted the entire page. I acknowledge your points. --Eklas (talk) 12:02, 22 January 2018 (CET)
@Mstr This is Centralwesten Uletha what we're talking about here. As far as I know, this part of the world is where most RW Eurasian languages origin and most countries in that area have (or should have, at least that's what I believe) clearly defined linguistic and cultural origins. Example: I moved my country to it's actual location so I can explain the Romantian origin of Romanish (Romanian) which lies in Garlis (Garlians came to the Antharian coast in the 9th century), the strong linguistical and cutural Surian influence (borders Suria), as well as RW Greek and Arabic loanwords (Greek - Antharia was in ancient times an area of Eganian influence; Arabic - proximity to Mazan). Even if some other Centralwesten Ulethan countries don't have such a detailedly explained cultural and linguistical background, you can clearly see on the map that most Slevic countries in Uletha are situated around Suria, therefore it should be pretty obvious that Suria has a key role in Uletha and if it'd disappear, it would be as if you took the heart out from an elephant baby's body - what would happen? It would die (hey, just like OGF will be slowly dying if nothing changes to good around here soon).
About Suria being "fake" or poorly mapped... In my eyes, Suria (or at least Chara Republic) is one of the best examples of mapping in OGF. It doesn't have an uncomfortable amount of punctual detail, it is uniformly mapped, it looks gorgeous and you can clearly understand the Surian culture just by looking at the map - creating such a great ambiance is art. Mapping in OGF in general means creating art, as I've said many times before. There are various places on OGF which absolutely can't be considered as art (because they're created robotically and look like 'kariertes Blockpapier'), this is what I'd consider a fake country that I'd have absolutely no problem with disappearing (...)
Suria is and will remain the Antharian neighbor and I will fight for its survival, as well as for further development in harmony with the existing culture. --Stjur (talkOGF) 16:18, 22 January 2018 (CET)
I won't stop you! Mazan and large areas of Suria are fake for me. You are right with what you said about Chara Republic. So why don't you take over this part and make a proposal how to preserve its mapping and corresponding wiki pages? In general, I see the difficulty in explaining that the neighboring country is so important and that there is harmony. Yes, maybe there is, but in this case we can never again erase a country, since there are always neighbors who don't want any undesired changes: All equal under the law! --Mstr (talk) 16:48, 22 January 2018 (CET)
@ Mstr not say a strong influence but rather 'important'. However, I am not too sure whether really UL137 plays a major role before the owner (Wal) left. In fact, if I could I wish I could move UL137 to one of the western continents as it did not truly fit there with the other European-style countries. The Russian equivalent language (Surian) re-naming issue is rather in dispute. I don't totally like the name because 'Suria' is more of Malay name and a proper more-Russian name should replace it (like Serovbia or Gorchovian-made up, no reference to anything). However, I don't think this should be why we should change it. If this is the case, then Mazanic, the Arabic language equivalent should also be deleted. (Why, oh why must we, who remain, clear up this mess the previous owners left)--Happy mapping and God bless, ZK (talk) 11:38, 22 January 2018 (CET)
@Zhenkang Thanks! I can't see the importance. It was a big empty country - nothing else. In my opinion there are only two possibilities: somebody who insists that is is important takes it over and has to find a new name (or good explanation why it is called like that) or we delete them all. The third way is to leave everything like it is. Discussing here about future events and how to develop the country is out of topic, since nobody of us can do that... --Mstr (talk) 11:57, 22 January 2018 (CET)

When we talk about Suria and other countries in Uletha we must remember that Admin Team tries to create every RW culture homeland here. The most natural solution for that is to use some existing countries (from which the most notable are Suria and Mazan due to their size) and that's why they are tagged as reserved and not entirely cleaned. I bet that when UL137 will become a new colaborative territory, the mapping by previous owner will be preserved as a base. That means deleting any article about Suria is just a nonsense by now because descripted area exist and will exist on the map in the future.

Despite that I agree with you that the name of Suria is just wrong, it doesn't sound Russian or even Slavic. It's more like Syria. By the way, when we talk about the names I find Syrillingan language group a little bit offensive for West and some Southern Slavic cultures, because it is simply derived from cyrillic script name, which these countries never used (in RW and OGF). For me it is the remnant of Pan-Slavism which is a propaganda used to justify imperial ambitions of Russian Tsars in Europe and in present times by Putin. --Rüstem Paşa Discussion 13:30, 22 January 2018 (CET)

Mstr, the two countries' theme may or may not be kept. However, like Pasha just said, the admins have like 'big plans' for these two countries (like AR120). The fate of these two nation's are literally in the admins' hands, but we can also draft proposals to help in their planning though. (By the way there was actually significant mapping in these countries, you can check the talk page of UL137 where it has pictures of Mazan before it was erased. They were erased so any future mapper can start from scratch.)

I knew the country when it was "active". the pictures show some large-scale motorways, a few names and large patches marked as "residential" area, as far as I know there was nothing else. So please correct me, if there was any "significant mapping". Nonsense because the "described area exist and will exist on the map in the future"? We should discuss in the wiki about things which exist in the mapped world and not the other way round, see OGF:Overwikification. So the consistent way would be to reduce the wiki-information to the information shown on the map... there is just a territory ULxxx, nothing else.--Mstr (talk) 14:32, 22 January 2018 (CET)
Haha, I never got the point "Suria-Syria", but it makes sense! haha! Anyway, I always understood the reference if we invert two letters: "SuRia-RuSia". About Mazan, I think its importance was because everybody always look to Mazan as the Arabic country in OGF. Even when talking about looks-like-arabic things, as the goytakano alphabet, usually is said it is "mazanic"... -- BMSOUZA (talk) 21:20, 22 January 2018 (CET)
Yep, agreed with Mstr. I think whatever plans for UL137 or Suria, they should be placed in a sandbox or any future proposals could be discussed on the talk page instead. @BMSOUZA I also knew the reference, but the previous owner of Suria seriously needs to give a proper name, like Charovia, Obsavya and so on. (just examples)--Happy mapping and God bless, ZK (talk) 23:45, 22 January 2018 (CET)

Other things

Should we delete Grozov from this list? Because, as I read in the wiki article, it was a city, not a country -- BMSOUZA (talk) 22:02, 21 January 2018 (CET)

Good point, well spotted, I'll delete it now. Ruadh (talk) 22:43, 21 January 2018 (CET)

Table Proposal

Would it make sense to move the lost countries in to a table? It makes the page longer, but it's easier to sort through if trying to find information on a lost country. I'm not completely sold on the idea, but thought it was worth sharing. --Paxtar (talk) 19:46, 7 October 2018 (CEST)

Why is it necessary to collect them? If only the country's main page is needed, they are automatically collected in the category.--Mstr (talk) 23:38, 7 October 2018 (CEST)
For me, the lost country page is useful for helping clear out content from lost countries. The page lets me know:
  • Whether the country has already been identified as lost.
  • Whether the country has already been marked with Lost on the country template, making it easier to identify in lists.
  • Where the country is located, so its status can be verified in the territories list.
  • The mapper of the country, so that their recent activity can be checked, or that they can be contacted, to verify that the country is lost, if that has not been verified already.
A simple list of country names would, for me, make the process of clearing out lost country information slower and less convenient.
If those who are more actively clearing lost country content feel differently, I’m happy to see the information layout take any form that makes things easier for them. Posting the table was meant only to present another option for how the information could be organized. —Paxtar (talk) 02:38, 8 October 2018 (CEST)
I think this table is definitely an improvement on the current layout. I like the 'notes' section, it could be used to record how much clean up has been completed, by who and when. Part of the problem with cleaning out lost country wiki pages is that it's difficult to be 100% sure all the pages have been marked for deletion. If users log their activity in the notes section it will help others to know whats been done and what is still to do. Ruadh (talk) 13:54, 8 October 2018 (CEST)
I agree to Paxtar... -- BMSOUZA (talk) 15:48, 8 October 2018 (CEST)
Country Continent User Notes
Açora TA User:Wjoaq114 All user Page Creations marked for deletion except Country Page & Flag. No Flag Template present Ruadh (talk) 13:54, 11 October 2018 (CEST)
Lost country.png Aiau AN User:CodeTriangle All user Page Creations marked for deletion except Country Page, Flag & Flag Template Ruadh (talk) 13:54, 11 October 2018 (CEST)
Lost country.png Akinyaka UL User:Tom_m7
Lost country.png Andover AN User:Jakeroot All user Page Creations marked for deletion except Country Page & Flag Template. No flag present. Ruadh (talk) 13:54, 11 October 2018 (CEST)
Lost country.png B'tuaga AN User:Imhotep All user Page Creations marked for deletion except Country Page, Flag & Flag Template Ruadh (talk) 13:54, 11 October 2018 (CEST)
Lost country.png Durië AN User:KVh
Lost country.png Eŋrige AN User:Riiga
Lost country.png Faseagonland AN User:DkrotHome72
Harda AN
Lost country.png Hiltonia AN User:Zeffy
Lost country.png Luiveland AN User:KVh
Lost country.png Monte Dorado AN User:Williamsca97
Paravel AN
Lost country.png Roliqia AN User:HipsterCatWalrus
Lost country.png Samuelonia AN User:Holdenburg
Lost country.png Semer Republic AN User:Thermo_nuclear
Lost country.png Ubana AN User:Tjj25
Lost country.png Yotongrek AN User:PhysicsFighter
Lost country.png Canadeshia AR User:Jan now AR104b
Lost country.png Chionova AR User:Tâmyña now part of AR101
Lost country.png Forrintië AR User:TRJ now divided into AR045a through AR045j, located south of AR120
Lost country.png Graenakkur AR
Lang_Republic AR User:Langsky now part of AR007
Lost country.png Maurician Republics AR User:Sil
Lost country.png Naobania AR User:BartLeDuc
Lost country.png Papuskovia AR User:Qwertzuiop246
Lost country.png Peridia AR User:Qwertzuiop246
Toukoku AR User:Yukimura now AR022
Troipoline AR User:Patjennings now part of AR101
30px Açora TA
Alderon TA User:Mikelatham
30px Ändeland TA
Lost country.png Arciv TA User:Ijzer
Lost country.png Balkaria TA User:Geoboi
Lost country.png Denta TA User:Vren
Lost country.png Dogardland TA User:Jake Knight
Equatorial_Tarephia TA User:Rafaceste
Mazan Flag.png Mazan UL User:Wal now reserved as UL137
Lost country.png Narghana TA User:Robert
Lost country.png Picard TA
Lost country.png Tamarindia TA now divided into part of TA095, TA094, TA091b, San Alvarez and Islatramma
Lost country.png Thul TA User:Elmo
United Swahillian Emirates TA User:Jonitondieki
Lost country.png Yury TA User:Magor
Aurenia UL User:Stjur
Reserved country.png Euresia UL now reserved territory
Lost country.png Mariana UL User:Brunanter
Lost country.png Nucia UL now divided into Justinique and other countries in the Scythe of Uletha
Kingdom_of_Riko UL
Lost country.png Seryisia UL User:Seerryyii
Sonela Gohi UL User:Renal cow
Suria Flag.png Suria UL User:Danny11 now reserved- probably a 'Russian' collaborative territory?
Volta UL User:Connor
Zanyizzix UL
What about adding some detailed infos about clean-up "status" instead of using the note-column for that? If the user is still present, the last column could get a stop sign.--Mstr (talk) 17:22, 14 October 2018 (CEST)
Lost country Clean-up status
Country Continent User Notes Main page &
flag template
Pages country Pages user
Açora TA User:Wjoaq114 Yes check.svg Yes check.svg Yes check lines.svg
I think an expanded table is a good idea. We might want to add a "purged from lists" column? Should clearing user pages be part of the process? I would still include notes, but in the last column, for any miscellaneous information that doesn't fit elsewhere. We should also spell out what checking each column actually signifies.--Paxtar (talk) 02:08, 15 October 2018 (CEST)
This is a very good idea. The list could be more manageable and the cleanup status is a very useful thing for wiki cleaner. I really agree. Arisuaq (talk) 20:13, 15 October 2018 (CEST)

Map Cleanup Projects

Hi everyone,

on this page, I have found something that might be interesting for lost country cleaners. Thing is about that every country, that is green or withrawed, should be cleaned up, so no names of this country will appear to a new user and more creative effort than when everything is named here and the user is simply bored. Cleaning up countries is a good idea, I think, and well be able to prevent issues such like this (there is no idea if Chastechek is still a lost country or not, because the owner wasn't creative enough).

For overview, there is a text with rules of country cleanup:

These projects involve making formerly owned areas more attractive for new users to claim. Specifically:

  • check to make sure that the territory has not already been assigned to someone (if so remove it from this list)
  • deleting the "name" tag from all objects in the territory
  • resetting the name of the territory back to its original number
  • miscellaneous improvements such as repairing broken territory relations, downgrading extensive motorways, fixing awkward coastlines, etc.
  • searching the wiki for all references to the territory and deleting them, adding the "lost country" tag to its main wiki page
  • removing the country from this list, after all the other items are complete

These projects do not involve deleting all the mapping in a territory. Remember that some new users prefer to claim a territory with significant mapping already in place. Any and all mapping that is halfway decent should remain for a future owner to handle.

These projects are intended for experienced users only.

I'd appreciate a table just like this:

Lost country Clean-up status
Country Country code Country name Place names Notes
AR106a AR106a
AN130 AN130
AN136 AN136
TA011 TA011
TA091b TA091b
TA098 TA098
UL046 UL046
UL108g UL108g
UL204 UL204
UL205 UL205
UL211 UL211
Açora TA100
Capitalistic Republic of Dobrobyt UL028
Celesto Republic UL131
Conabaras TA014a
Confederation of Atah AR065
Cyansea Islands AN140b
Davilandia TA014
Dorénesie UL208
Druqua TA022b
Equatorial Tarephia TA101
Gamen TA018
Hlelhia TA031
Hudley TA119
Kataui TA113c
Kingdom of Vocolaszcian UL157
Litauen Reich UL338
Mariana UL212
Monte Dorado AN134e
Orlandia AR022e
Papouśkovje+Perÿdua AR009
Patermas TA021
Populchra AR026
Principauté de Guyenne UL207
Plateada AR120-24
Qumal AR017b
Raiden UL014
Rem di Calenopolis TA092b
Republic of Kian TA026c
Republic of Leto TA026b
Republic of Narghana TA103
Republisce Otonosvarçe TA003b
Rosaceae AN134a
Saneusitania AR058
Sastano AR100a
Socialist Republic of Rőliqia AR150d
Solaria AR104a
Takaria TA023
Terra Sampuherna TA008a
Terwen TA017a
Tierajas-Verdes UL331
Tiey AN150i
Tirnua AR022c
Tokaina TA008b
United Federation of Kingdoms AR061
United Provinces of Denta TA104
United Socialist Republic of Tyksi AN150b
Vachia AR022a
Vidipurpula AN128
Walentia AR036
Zanaria+Azanari Republic AN137c

When the cleanup is done, cleanup status (country name and place names) should be marked with Yes check.svg.

Please add the comments if this may fit or not. Thanks. Arisuaq (talk) 12:59, 30 October 2018 (CET)

Purpose of lost country-page?

What's the purpose of collecting all lost countries? There are many countries in the list that never existed or which are not relevant for any other country nowadays. In my opinion only preserving excellent pages of lost countries does make sense, everything else should be reused or deleted.--Mstr (talk) 16:55, 25 November 2018 (CET)

I like to see it a testament to what once existed. I don't think it's necessary in deleting them, and they're not doing any harm or clutter by just existing. If someone wants to read them, we should keep that option open.
This really reflects a trend I've seen now. I'm not really sure why it specifically happened recently, but I've seen the OGF wiki being subject to a lot of 'bureaucracy' editing. Dozens of consecutive, tiny edits just to remove links or making trivial corrections that serve little physical purpose. Some of it is called for, such as TCC moving all the Commonia stubs to the Commonia wiki page. But as a person who checks 'recent changes' for interesting bliki updates, forum discussions and new wiki articles, it gets annoying. Sometimes I have a feeling all this organisation is unnecessary: bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy. The second table on this page tables remains unused, and what end does it serve? Surely this itself counts as overwikification. Yuanls (talk) 18:58, 25 November 2018 (CET)
I don't see removal of lost pages and links to lost pages as bureaucracy. In contrast, removing pages without removing links, like it is sometimes done, creates much inconsistency. The best way to remove links to a page is to remove them when you remove the page (mark it for deletion). This produces many changes, but to remove them is not the problem, creating such pages before is the problem.--Mstr (talk) 19:13, 25 November 2018 (CET)