Forum:Global and regional issues/EUOIA

From OpenGeofiction

Admin note: This page contains discussion on EUOIA from February 2025 onwards. 2021 - 2024 discussion can be found here, Pre-2021 discussion has been moved to that page's "Discussion" page. There is plenty of material there (including flags, treaty proposals, etc.) which could be reused.

📖 TL;DR

This page will be used to develop (hopefully) final iteration of the EUOIA, a proposed supranational union comprising of countries in the Eastern Ulethan Region. Some concepts have already been discussed outside of the wiki, but as this project grows it will be necessary to allow everyone in the region (and the world) to have a voice in this project.

🗺️ Discussion Structure

For this discussion forum, we will discuss the broad EUOIA organization and work our way down into the little details.

Structure for Discussion

We will have "rounds" of issues focusing on a specific topic in which we can discuss for two weeks, but voting will only take place after the first week, if at all. We may have multiple rounds at one should we feel that we can move faster. During the voting week we can also choose to postpone voting and discuss for another two weeks, if we feel that we need more time. We can open our first round of issues on 22/02/25. For now, I ask that we get a general idea of who will be members of this union. If you have concerns or want this structure to change, please shoot out a PM or add a comment in the "Concerns" section.


A note about voting: Members can choose to vote on either our Discord or on the Wiki (but no double votes)! However, all relevant discussions must take place here.

Membership

If you wish to be a participating member of EUOIA, please put your country below. If we anticipate types of membership (observing states, etc...) and you feel that you might fall into that group, you can still put your country below. This list will not be permanent to allow members come and go as they please.

Country User
Flag of Wendmark-Đenkuku.svg Wendmark-Denkuku ParrotMan (talk) 16:30, 20 February 2025 (UTC)
Esheinflag.png Eshein Ifgus (talk) 13:09, 21 February 2025 (UTC)
Template:Lantia Nehalem501 (talk) 22:43, 21 February 2025 (UTC)
Izaland flag.png Izaland Izaland Terramorphing Committee (talk) 14:34, 21 February 2025 (UTC)
Flag Miuro.svg Miuro Kyunzi (talk) 03:43, 22 February 2025 (UTC)

Potential Topics to Discuss?

For some topics y'all want to discuss, put them in the region below.

Topic User Additional Notes
Freedom of movement Izaland Terramorphing Committee (talk) 14:38, 21 February 2025 (UTC) Visa, border checks etc
Educational exchanges Izaland Terramorphing Committee (talk) 14:38, 21 February 2025 (UTC) Will EU have a student exchange program similar to Europe's Erasmus program?
Military Izaland Terramorphing Committee (talk) 14:38, 21 February 2025 (UTC) Common army, military cooperation
Common Market ParrotMan (talk) 15:52, 21 February 2025 (UTC) Will EUOIA have an open trading bloc as a result of damaged economies after "The Great War"?
Common Air Traffic Control Programme ParrotMan (talk) 15:52, 21 February 2025 (UTC) Shall we have a common organization that manages Aircraft Movement, similar to Eurocontrol?

🤔 Concerns?

I am confused about some aspects of this post.

  • Why exactly is a new post needed, if discussion here already proceeded substantially and the nature of the project has seemingly not changed much? I don't see any downside to why you would not continue there. If the page seems to bloated with old and irrelevant material, you can hide such parts using spoilers for example. But if we start a new post everytime we want to move the direction of a discussion, discussions will fizzle out more.
  • Secondly, what is the difference between "Motion to begin EUOIA project" and "Motion to Take Over EUOIA as MSTR is No Longer Regularly Active"?
  • Second and a half-ly, even if mstr is no longer active, how and why would someone "take over" a discussion on the forum - you could still just built upon the previous discussion, it doesn't seem to me like any of the material there is only accessible to mstr?
  • And lastly, mappers are free to coordinate their bi- or multilateral cooperations anywhere they like, including Discord, the Metaverse, or per carrier pigeon. But it is an established rule that anything that affects other mappers or that claims some form of community-wide validity needs to be discussed and decided on in the forum. That is not a matter of efficiency or ease of use but of transparency and fostering a community where everyone feels (and is) heard.

Please address these points before going into further details. Thanks! Leowezy (talk) 07:33, 16 February 2025 (UTC)


I like the questions of Leowezy being answered too. Last week i received a message from Parrotman with an invitation to the Discord-server, as my territory of Neberly is in East Uletha. Parrotman highly encouraged me to join "as many other mappers use is as a medium for communication and coordination as Eastern Uletha becomes a busier place. For EUOIA stuff, we will continue to post stuff on the forum but most of our decision making will take place on Discord." I'm not a member yet of Discord and i'm not looking for another way to discuss topics in our 'corner of the world'. For me this forum works fine, also as it can be viewed by all Opengeofiction-members and not just the ones getting an invitation. Antoon (talk) 10:45, 16 February 2025 (UTC)


Hey guys! Both of you raised very valid points and concerns as I have not clarified some aspects of this post, to which my reply below helps clarify some issues that have emerged.
To reply to Leowezy's questions:
  • I did originally want to proceed with the "hiding elements in the previous discussion" idea, but I'm quite new to the wiki and that I didn't know how that would quite work out. If you are able to do that, feel free to delete this page and move everything to the other -- with the expandable feature -- thanks!
  • "Motion to Begin EUOIA Project" is to just find a general consensus on whether or not if the majority of those in the region are interested and want to resurrect the EUOIA project; "Motion to Take Over EUOIA as MSTR is No Longer Regularly Active" is to clarify whether or not if we are looking to bring back EUOIA specifically or if we want to make another supranational union, dropping the EUOIA namesake.
  • The whole point of a new forum (or per the first question a revived discussion on the old forum) is to rebuild from the ground up, as the needs and requirements of the EU region has fluctuated over the past few years of when the discussion kind of died out. We've seen new countries pop up in this region and recently we have collectively revised the history in the region (which is emerging on the wiki) and I have found that the current working EUOIA doesn't fit as well as it might've before... it might just be easier to scrap everything, and start over again... and recycling some elements from the previous discussion (such as flag ideas, etc...) are already being considered.
  • Although I have considered carrier pigeon, wiki forums, and more recently Pictionary as a mode of communication over the topic of EUOIA, for the past few months I have grown a discord server that communicates about mapping, history, and commercial bits in the region and I thought it would be more convenient if we just communicated it through there. Obviously, I didn't consider the transparency and "putting the idea to the rest of the world" aspects until a few days ago when Izaland brought up this concern, which is why I'm pushing the previous Proposals for Communicating and Voting. Obviously, using Discord as the sole means of idea pitching, voting, and discussing is never going to happen, as I do agree that the community shouldn't be gatekept from collaborating in the EUOIA project. However, I do want to determine discord's role in this discussion (e.g., as an auxiliary for discussion?) for this post. However, I think that we can all agree that from now on, anything that is discussed outside of the wiki pertaining to EUOIA will have to be posted on the wiki anyways.
To reply to Antoon's question:
  • Firstly, I want to apologize if you were feeling offended in any means -- that was not my intention. This invitation obviously occurred before Izaland's concerns. As per other concerns you have brought up, please read my reply to Leowezy.
Hope to hear from y'all soon! ParrotMan (talk) 15:55, 16 February 2025 (UTC)
To be honest i think i was a bit annoyed by the way the discord-server was brought on to me. But from the answers and the way this page is revised i take it every decision concerning the EUOIA or it's follow-up will (also) be discussed here in the open, and that's good enough for me. On the whole i quite enjoy the bits of mapping i do, still after over 10 years i'm part of this project. But also it isn't my main priority with things going on in private and work. So i only invest bits of time here and can't do much more then follow what others do and post here. It would be too much for me to follow or take part in discussions on different platforms. Therefore i'm curious to the ideas and discussion that come. Antoon (talk) 17:57, 18 February 2025 (UTC)


Thanks for clarifying. I had a look at the old EUIOA page; in fact it not only contained an old (~up to 2024) discussion, but even a pre-2021 discussion which was moved to that page's talk page. This reminds me how long this topic has been going on... Facilitating and finalizing discussion on this topic has clearly been challenging.
May I propose the following before you start on the contentual discussion:
  • I do see now how a new forum post might be needed...
    • but please remove the voting on wiki vs discord. Anyone is free to use discord or other means of communication to discuss ideas as they seem fit, but each proposal needs to be spelled out and eventually voted on on the wiki.
    • Please also remove the voting records from the discord discussion. It gives members who are not active on discord the wrong impression that formal parts of the decision making take place there. If there is a wide consensus on specific questions among so many members, it should be easy to reestablish that on-site. Also, I still don't clearly understand the difference between the first two motions, but it might not matter anyway.
    • I have highlighted the link to the past dicussion more prominently at the start of this forum post.
  • I would advise (personal opinion) to structure the discussion process a little more clearly. If you already have a proposal agreed upon by a dozen members, spell it out clearly and give non-discord members the opportunity to comment and, if they like, declare they would like to join. Past discussions on EUOIA seem to have failed in my eyes because the discussion dragged on too long, getting deeper and deeper into the details of the inner workings of the union and the regulations it would set before anything concrete was finalised. To avoid this happening a third time, I would advise to start with a "bare minimum" of a union: name; type of union (economic, defense, ...); member states; structure for how further details will be added later (see next point).
  • Once an EUOIA (or differently named union) and a list of participating mappers is established, you could then use the treaty system from the past discussion to flesh it out. That system has the benefit that individual member countries might be allowed to opt in or out of treaties as they which, reducing the complexity of discussion and voting by a lot. These treaties could range from defining the union's flag over freedom of movement and trade to defense clauses. But this discussion should probably only start after the "bare minimum" union is up and running, including a dedicated wiki article. Again, this is my personal opinion as a normal member, not as regional admin.
Best, Leowezy (talk) 18:50, 16 February 2025 (UTC)
Will do! Thanks for the guidance! 😊

ParrotMan (talk) 23:05, 16 February 2025 (UTC)!

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