Forum:Global and regional issues/Great War

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I decided to compile some thoughts from the past wiki (detailed in an archived thread here) and various discussions on the unofficial OGFC discord. The aim is not coming together for a "decisive" world war (which is impossible given how spread out OGF activity generally is), but at least some consensus of how it can play out and line out the potential parties involved.--Zhenkang (talk) 04:43, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

These are the five assumptions (by Zekiel) I believe are already commonly assumed regarding the Great War.

  1. The name of the war is the Great War.
  2. There was only one war of such nature.
  3. The war happened between 1930 and 1950 (cannot be past or within X years of 1960, since the Pax Nova games, which are now canon, defined that they were held in celebration of the war's end).
  4. The singlular war lasted a significant amount of time (10+ years).
  5. The war took place as a collection of different theatres rather than a coordinated "Allies vs Axis"-style single or dual theatre grand-battle war.

Further thoughts:

  • I thought that more likely there would be a series of proxy wars at major flashpoints around the world (including Mecyna and the Lycene Region). Proxy wars can be via civil wars in former colonies or just wars between countries. Conventional war can be through regional expansionism as well.
  • It is quite likely the conflicts may have come about due to a rise of nationalism as a possible result of an emerging leftist movement, whether communist, socialist or any other form, leading to a series of independence wars. The general theme could be the end of the old colonial order and the rise of new emerging powers, like Suria and the Federal States.
  • The war can be in two main phases. The first can be the wave of rebellions by colonies (independence wars), after which the colonial powers were humiliated. In the second, the colonial powers have to tackle the leftist threat and try to influence its former colonies in a series of proxy wars (like civil wars and regional wars). This war can be longer in the 30s and 50s, though of course the timeline can vary by region.
  • There probably isn't even a clear-cut group of belligerents, and nations/parties can be on different sides depending on the nature of the conflict. (e.g. see supporting groups of the Nigerian Civil War)

I think it's important to include Alessa's thoughts/points from the time that detailed more clearly what we need to be thinking about here:

"To everyone, regarding the Great War idea:

  • There are a ton of factors that need to be considered for any Great War that we have on OGF. First, in the 1940s (lead-up to the war), we have a ton of different countries in a ton of areas that would be developed enough to engaged in a global war but really separated by distances that are not easily overcome by 1940s technology. It cannot be that a simple conflict between two countries in Uletha started it, or it wouldn't logically involve a random country in Antarephia… why would they want to send troops (even to an "ally") *that far away*? Another point to consider is that allies are usually countries of common goals and within reach of the other to be of assistance *defensively*. Alliances are a big deal, but allies are rarely obligated in their treaties to help an aggressor.
  • What works a lot better is to consider how these larger-scale wars typically evolved in human history. One of the major ways that wars evolved were that a lot of smaller conflicts took place concurrently, and with similar goals or means, leading to a huge inter-tangling of conflicts that created a broader mess. As humans, we like to compartmentalize into what effected us immensely, but historians acknowledge the continuum and the fact that nothing happens in a vacuum. For a "great war" to work, there need to be a ton of tinderboxes that all get lit at the same time, creating a run on resources, inflaming existing strife. Religion, ideology, etc. can all be a factor, but they aren't the definitive. There are plenty of times where countries aligned with another of different religion or ideology in a war." -Alessa

--Ernestpkirby (talk) 08:17, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Possible "fronts" (or wars taking place in the 30s to 50s)

(Feel free to include)

  • North Archanta:
    • War of Fellow Brothers (Fascist Bai against Kaosha, Grinzez and other smaller countries]
    • Mecynan Canal Crisis (between CCA and FSA)
  • Uletha
    • Blönland (+ other Kalmish countries, maybe Reeland, Riederland, Remsfalen, Luthesien) vs. Izaland (+ Kojo, Pyokchin, Canterra) Axilant - Mountain War - part of the constant confrontation between Blönland/Gaermanic countries and Axiland (Axian and Lantian)
      • Blönland and Izaland's animosity means that both always were part of different, opposed alliances
      • Probably not the best result for Blönland, the reason why the Weidtal area belongs to Izaland
      • Canterran troops did get involved with Eshein/Mergany

Countries/Parties involved

If you want to add your own country and discuss its potential involvement and role, or just its history between the 30s to 50s, add under the respective continents with a new subheader to keep track.

Antarephia

Archanta

Bai Empire (Fascist Bai)

Bai during this period was under the Fascist regime. Fascist Bai was an aggressor trying to expand into its neighbours, notably Kaosha and neighbouring Kanglapo. It had an alliance with Cinasia.--Zhenkang (talk) 12:11, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Federal States

While the FSA may have been a participant in a Mecyna Canal crisis, the FSA mainland would not have been subject to any battlegrounds. The FSA nominally may have only been directly involved with the Mecyna Canal crisis, but the country's distance from other belligerents combined with its high levels of industrialization would've made the FSA a stable, important production location for materiel to resupply allies on other fronts, leading to a sizeable boom in domestic manufacturing and production. (Other FSA stateowners are encouraged to add to this section and/or offer alternatives for discussion.) --TheMayor (talk) 02:18, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I guess for FSA involvement there might need to be a larger thread (e.g. Forum:Global and regional issues/Great War/Federal States or a corresponding thread in the FS subforum) if it goes on for longer. But I agree the FSA (mainland) wouldn't be the subject to any battlegrounds, much like our real-world USA. That said, perhaps some of its overseas colonies (like Arecales) might still be military targets (like how Japan attacked Pearl Harbour but not the US mainland directly). I guess the FSA might gain some islands (like Nahuwal Atoll) during the War.--Zhenkang (talk) 02:35, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
Whatever the fronts are, Nahuwa Atoll is very strategically located. Not sure what wangi's plans for the atoll are, but a history similar to Wake Island would make a lot of sense. --TheMayor (talk) 17:38, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Piscipula

Piscipula would have nominally received its independence just before the Great War began, but was kept under an FSA military governorship and used as a forward staging area for a Mecyna Canal crisis. As a result, in modern times the FSA continues to maintain a sizeable military presence in Piscipula, although the nation diplomatically has far more autonomy. --TheMayor (talk) 02:18, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Tarephia

Barzona

Barzona had a military dictatorship between 9 March 1930 and 18 January 1939, and then from 1939 to 1960 a stable period of conservative government domination. Possilby in the 30s Barzona could be involved in conflicts, maybe early 40s but larger things go its likely there won't be much active conflict, maybe a period of armament but no real conflicts. Teotiyolcan conflict would be of interest in Barzona especially if there is any possible threat to the land north of Alto river being claimed or threatened. Brunanter (talk) 23:00, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Freedemia

I'll just reiterate here that through various discussions with other Lycene area territories I had planned for some degree of Lycene stability and Freedemia's relative non-involvement. I think I talk about it in the history on the Freedemia wiki page, but notably Freedemia's comparative stability was part of what attracted a lot of migrants and draft-dodgers from other countries around the world impacted more directly, influencing the population boom of the time. --Ernestpkirby (talk) 08:08, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Inxigne

At the time of the Great War, Inxigne's territory included what is today Meilan. Inxigne had significant oil and natural gas reserves in its territorial waters, and these reserves, together with Inxigne's strategic location on the Strait of Lyc, made the nation a military target of the Allies and the Axis. The naval blockade in the Strait of Lyc disrupted trade in the Tarephias and diverted a lot of freight through Eaux Riantes. In addition, the fall of Antarephian Meilan created a humanitarian crisis in Inxigne as the Meilanese fled to the formerly leased lands of Hai Djin. Chazeltine (talk) 03:48, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Teotiyolcan

I don't know how this would fit with what Ernest has in mind, but I was thinking that the Great War could have been a point where Teotiyolcan might have had a conflict with one of its neighbors over its somewhat disputed border territories (Valaga, probably) - so perhaps there was a small theater in the northern Lyc. Alternatively, neutrality would have also been a realistic option, but I think I agree with most of the lycene area being relatively stable, although I don't think I would rule out the possibility of former/current colonies sending troops to a theater in the Mediterranean or elsewhere. --Lithium-Ion (talk) 22:04, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Tigeria

Tigeria continued its foreign policy of defensive neutrality in order to allow the Red Shield to coordinate an international response to the humanitarian crises created in the theaters of the Great War. The diplomatic efforts of the Red Shield and the philosophies of the political elite to the Great War started some of the earliest conversations which would later lead to the creation of the Assembly of Nations. Chazeltine (talk) 04:05, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Tempeira

I'm not sure wether Tempeira would have had a civil war caused by internal+external pressure, or enter a period of expansionism lead by Sitian Nationalist Movements (that would claim much of central tarephia), but I feel the latter would work better. Tempeira would have lost the war before even getting close to the end the general chaos, but I assume places like Vodeo and Araguán would have suffered attacks. Davieerr (talk) 17:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Uletha

Arion

I'm not sure if Arion would have been involved at all in any theater, since its religiosity might have promoted neutrality, but if it was, it would probably fight against Mazan+allies (or possibly Kalm...). It really depends what the thoughts of the other mappers in the Ghetorian region are about their countries involvement in the war. --Lithium-Ion (talk) 22:04, 23 March 2023 (UTC) No longer canon. --User:Lithium-Ion | [1] (talk) 17:54, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Canterra

I'm assuming that since Canterra has had relations with Izaland since the 1800s, and is semi-paranoid about the western powers, however, considering fascist Bai, we would probably be against fascism. If Fascist Bai spilled into Belphenia and Orinoco, I would imagine Peninsula and Axian would be on one side. - Awesomeboy123 (talk) 03:21, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Demirhan Empire/Demirhan Tarephia

It's probably the only of my countries which is large enough to be significant player in the war theatre so let's go. As of now Demirhan Empire doesn't have set history during Great War period but I think it could participate. However I must say there are no countries which are supposed to start invasion on the empire which can be reasonably explained except for Suria where Suria mappers weren't interested in such event. Additionally I don't think the empire could be aggressor itself because in case of that and loosing the war, it would realistically be partitioned into nation states so I guess Great War will remain silent period for the empire.Rustem Pasha (talk) 15:22, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Kara (United Republic of Kara)

So Kara is not big enough to have any significant role in the war; however, it may tie in with the war being the catalyst for the formation of the country (which started as a union of several bordering states in the mid-30s). And the war might induce the countries to unite into one state. -- Anonymous21 (talk) 17:11, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Also, it's probably worth adding that Kara was and is staunchly pro-democracy (the founding principle of the agreement), so if it did end up getting involved in the war it would be on whatever side might be pro-democracy. - Anonymous21 (talk) 05:27, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Iscu

I've written in that the Federal States (and Gobrassanya, to a lesser extent) used Iscu as a point for air and naval operations - of course, exactly who the FSA was fighting is unclear, but perhaps if there was an aggressor in the Mediterranean, a country allied with the FSA could have called on it for aid and resulted in Iscu being used? Alternatively, Suvuma/Goytankana is a good stand-in for a possible theater where the FSA and Gobras could have gotten involved. --Lithium-Ion (talk) 22:04, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Izaland

Izaland nowadays is a peaceful country, basically neutral (but has a strong self defense army). In the modern history Izaland has also been a relatively pacific country, so I don't aim to depict it as the war time imperialist Japan. But I can see that there is a strong cultural contrast between the south-eastern East Uletha (Eastern Asian culture) and the North (Germanic/Scandinavian culture). Assuming that the "western" powers tried to invade or colonize the "Asian" sector, some clash must have happened. So I can glimpse a pan-"Asian" alliance for a self defense purpose, maybe Izaland with Nuen, Moyontawi, Pyokchin, the soon to be Japanese language country.

Also, the shift to republic might have happened before or around this timing. --Izaland Terramorphing Committee (talk) 00:15, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Semanya

When starting Semanya, I had wanted to work on a country that had been born out of relatively recent conflict. In what I have written so far, the modern Semanish state was formed from war in 1957, which lines up with the Great War timeline, albeit on the later end – this is discussed in the next paragraph. More recently, I had been playing around with the idea of a "one people, two states" scenario, where the majority of ethnic Semanish people live in either Semanya or the southern two-thirds of UL28a. The northern third of UL28a, in an ideal scenario, would be occupied by Germanic groups. I had written that the conflict fractured the Semanish people due to conflicting interests of the Germanic countries and Axian powers (Kojo, Izaland, etc.) indirectly fighting for geopolitical dominance in the interior of the East Ulethan continent.

Given the lateness in timing, the formation of the Semanish state in April of 1957 could be considered as somewhat of a "return to peace" as opposed to a "ceasefire", which may have come at the tail end of the Great War conflict period. However, it might be worth noting that the Great War may not have to be the only war, since in the real world the Korean War started five years after the end of War 2. If the timing of Semanya's conflict and formation ended up being framed around a Korean War-esque scenario as opposed to one where the country is founded towards the end of the Great War, my contributions can be disregarded. I did think it would be worth bringing up as an option, however. —Geoboi (talk) 01:42, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Blönland

Blönland is and always was a Ancien Regime type country and would most likely align itself with whatever is the "evil" faction in the war. However, much more important is the antagonism between Blönland and Izaland. The Mountain War of 1954-1955 could be one of the theatres of the Great War (in this case it would need to be expanded beyond "shootout between border guards over an allegedly stolen herd of cattle that turned hot for several months") or be a separate, later conflict. The Weidtal Autonomous Area became part of Izaland either through the Great War and/or through the Mountain War.

The Great War could play an important role in the formation of the right-wing alliance discussed on Discord.CaribbeanIslandMapper (talk) 13:04, 15 November 2023 (UTC)


Florescenta

No consensus, but I assume a conflict between Mazan and Florescenta would have been close to boiling, specially because of Oil, I would also say Mazan would have been heavly targeted for its resources. Davieerr (talk) 17:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

General Discussion

Now that Ingerland is officially a collaborative project, I had an idea for the Great War I wanted to offer. Given the overall timeframe of the Great War (1930s-1950s) and the far reach of the Ingerish Commonwealth, what if the collapse of the Ingerish Empire is what prompted the Great War? An Ingerish Empire collapse would allow all the various former Ingerish colonies scattered around the OGF world to become independent and open up regional power vacuums that would allow each theatre of the war to happen mostly concurrently but for reasons that are locally determined by each group of nations rather than on some broader ideological coalitions that would otherwise result in a "winning" side and a "losing" side. Ingerland of course would not totally collapse as the country continues to exist into the present day, but quickly losing most/all of their overseas territories would be the impetus for the war. As mentioned above, belligerents would not have to be directly connected to Ingerland in any way, as the loss of the Empire's stabilizing force would be enough to open up the appropriate fault lines to support skirmishes. --TheMayor (talk) 22:25, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

This could be interesting. In my little area of mapping I had imagined Arecales being sold from Ingerland to FSA in the mid 30s, in the style of Denmark selling Virgin Islands. Arecales is far from the mother country and if FSA is in the same side then it gives Ingerland needed money, less territory to protect and be spread thin and also for FSA forward presence in this conflict or future ones. Brunanter (talk) 23:02, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
This is a pretty interesting idea- I like it. I think my one question would then be understanding the broader timeline- it seems like there were two waves of Ingerish collapse, the one with Freedemia, Paroy, FSA, etc in the 1700s and then a second one that we're talking about here. Would be interesting to explore that to understand what caused the Empire to gain the strength to, "strike back" if you will, in the middle.
But yeah there are definitely regions where a loss of Ingerish power could easily have been the cause of destabilization. Promising idea imo. --Ernestpkirby (talk) 12:39, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
I quite always thought of the Great War to be something about colonial powers losing control, with wars of independence and regional conflicts that erupted in the potential political vacuum. It's a neat idea to think about. Maybe also Ingerland's collapse could be due to political instability at home; I quite think of OGF's early 20th century to be a point when new ideologies were emerging (nationalistic fascism and communism), which could escalate tensions.--Zhenkang (talk) 13:40, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Considering that Socialism in several countries and in italy, Fascism, rose as a result of WW1, do you agree that OGF's revolutions should be postponed to during or after the Great War unless the country already has a war or a major crisis in the 1910s? The same applies to the abolition of monarchies in countries that are now republics. CaribbeanIslandMapper (talk) 21:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

I do not see a need for a major, global crisis as a trigger for any of these things. Regional or internal crises are more than sufficient. If people wish to gather together to amongst a region and agree that there was some new philosophical wave that would cause something like the late 1840s (the so-called "Spingtime of Nations"), then that's up to them. That could result in numerous effective and failed revolutions alone. The Great War, in whatever iteration it ultimately comes around, should be the only major global conflict—widespread, large, devastating enough to shock the world into the Pax Nova. — Alessa (talk) 21:44, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Reading throught this, I am left to suggest that contrary to our war which had a stronger colonial hold (that soon collapsed), the Great War is triggered by a wave of nationalist, revolutionalistic, leftist, right-wing movements that in each region, fought for self-determinance. Ingrea would probably have been slowly losing economical power to hold it's colonies, if there is no WW1 in the early 1900's here, most of the economical collapse of Ulethan nation doesn't happen sure, but at the same time, the capitalist machine would most probably have pushed economical exploration of it's workers, and exploration of other nations more heavly than in our world, most probably creating a more intense feeling against colonial powers during the early 20th century. I guess some Ingrean hold becoming independent with the guarantee of self-governance by another power (think if China was protecting India's independence) and a try of Ingrea's government to re-establish control (since a lot of industries could have been located there) could start a domino effect. Davieerr (talk) 17:37, 9 July 2024 (UTC)